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 Post subject: Adding buffer to non buffered load data
PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2009 6:59 pm 
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Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2007 6:47 pm
Posts: 25
I am in the process of working up some turkey loads and want to add buffer to a few promising loads to see if I can tighten them up a little bit more. If I were to add some buffer, I would imagine I would need to back off on the powder charge a bit. It there a general consensus as to how much? I was thinking maybe a grain or two should suffice. I am having a hard time finding any info on this. Thanks in advance.


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 Post subject: Re: Adding buffer to non buffered load data
PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2009 7:04 pm 
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Some people have done it with loads that are on the low pressure side to begin with. What's the load you're using now? Might be easier to just look for a load that already has buffer in it ....

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 Post subject: Re: Adding buffer to non buffered load data
PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2009 7:18 pm 
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Posts: 25
Here is the scenario. I ordered turkey ranger wads and the whole shebang to load some turkey killers. I also found a load using a waa12r wad with 2 1/4oz shot and 28gr buffer. The buffered load patterns as good if not better than the 1 1/2oz and 1 7/8oz turkey ranger loads, at a lower cost per shell. I was thinking that if I add a little buffer to the turkey ranger loads that I could potentially tighten them up some. I wasn't able to pattern the way I wanted to today as the range I shot at, will only let you shoot at 25 and 50yds so I was unable to pattern at 30 and 40yd like I wanted to. My 25yd patterns were very good with the 2 1/4oz buffered and the 1 7/8oz turkey ranger load. All patterns at 50 were less than desirable for my needs. I will say that when I ordered my turkey ranger wads that I thought they were going to be unslit so I could "tune" them. They arrived slit, and are slit more than 3/4 the way down, which I'm sure is why they are not giving me the patterns I want. As long as I can get them to pattern good to 40yds I will be happy for now as the season starts in 7 days. I can always tinker around more this summer. As it is I only have one more day to shoot and that is the day before the opener. It is getting to be crunch time.


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 Post subject: Re: Adding buffer to non buffered load data
PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2009 7:33 pm 
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Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2008 3:54 pm
Posts: 65
Location: ms
I add 25gr of buffer to my 10 ga. loads, I just remove 25gr of shot, 13 #6, not much shot at all. Jay


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 Post subject: Re: Adding buffer to non buffered load data
PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2009 9:57 pm 
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Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2007 6:47 pm
Posts: 25
goosegun- I took your tip and just loaded three test loads and subracted 25gr shot and replaced that with 25gr buffer.


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 Post subject: Re: Adding buffer to non buffered load data
PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2009 10:13 pm 
Presentation Grade

Joined: Sat Dec 20, 2008 10:57 pm
Posts: 543
Location: Minnesota
Ozzy:

Don't get fooled into thinking that the wads shouldn't be slit. If the wads don't open up and some shot is "trapped" in the wad, the wad will "turn" and fly like a shuttlecock. I had this happen with some of BP's CSD118 wads. When this happened for me, 65% patterns turned into 40% patterns.

What percent patterns are you getting? Except for "flyers", a 30" circle at 40 yards equates to a 18.75" circle at 25 yards, and 37.5" circle at 50 yards. In reality, there will be some flyers, so the percent in a 30" circle at 40 yards should be higher than the percent in a 37.5" circle at 50 yards.

I received the Federal wads.

Thanks,
Mike


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 Post subject: Re: Adding buffer to non buffered load data
PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2009 10:27 pm 
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Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2007 6:47 pm
Posts: 25
I was hoping for the unslit so I could slit them myself. I haven't calculated the percentages. I used 16" circles as I have a stainess steel bowl that diameter so it was easy. I guess my disappointment so far is that the federal premiums that I use pattern better (tighter) at 50yds than the ones I have loaded so far. Although all that does is strengthen my resolve to find the right combination.
It will happen. :D I just feel under the gun so to speak. All turkeys I have killed have been pretty close so I should be fine. I just like to have the "what if" factor covered.

Glad you got the wads. I'm glad we could help each other out.

One thing I find interesting and frustrating is that the most current turkey ranger load book is 14 years old. Most of the loads take activ hulls which are scarce and no longer made. It also calls for powders that are NLA. I hope that BP updates it soon. I had NONE of the components necessary to make one of those loads. LOL Luckily the turkey ranger brochure they sent me had a few loads I could use. I guess I may have to track down some activ hulls.

All I know is I can't wait to get it figured out. Patterning turkey loads has never been one of my favorite pastimes. :wink:


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 Post subject: Re: Adding buffer to non buffered load data
PostPosted: Tue Apr 07, 2009 5:15 am 
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Location: Australia
I have searched this topic a bit , I have been told it is not as simple as reducing the charge weight to allow for the weight of buffer.Adding buffer can increase pressures 2500 psi.Tom Rosters Buffered lead and bismuth reloading manual is worth a read.


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 Post subject: Re: Adding buffer to non buffered load data
PostPosted: Tue Apr 07, 2009 10:51 pm 
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Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2007 6:47 pm
Posts: 25
I meant to call BP today and pick their brain but got too busy. I want to make sure to blow the turkeys face off and not mine. :wink:


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 Post subject: Re: Adding buffer to non buffered load data
PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2009 8:05 pm 
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Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2008 3:54 pm
Posts: 65
Location: ms
sorry, did not clarify, I am using a BPI 10 ga chart with fed. hulls, fed primer, and sp10 wad. Using load data for 2oz of shot but only using 1 7/8 of shot, but keeping weight at 1 7/8 with buffer. Powder weight is 6gr less for blue dot,but only 3gr less for longshot. You will need a chart for powder reduction, sorry again, Jay.


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 Post subject: Re: Adding buffer to non buffered load data
PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2009 9:45 pm 
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Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2007 6:47 pm
Posts: 25
Maybe I should disassemble these loads and start over. I will call Ballistic Products tomorrow and see what they have to say. Thanks guys for your help.


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 Post subject: Re: Adding buffer to non buffered load data
PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2009 11:33 pm 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2008 7:48 pm
Posts: 194
Location: Mechanicsburg, PA
Hey folks,

For buffered loads, I first assemble the shot load I want making sure the shot is at the correct level with the mouth and without crimping the mouth. Then pour the shot out and check the weight. You can do this several times to get an average weight of the shot drop. Then put the shot back in the shell and add buffer material while touching the shell to a vibrating case cleaner every now and then to pack the buffer material in between the shot. When you have loaded all the buffer material you can while vibrating, you have pretty much successfully filled all the voids between the shot. Pour out any excess buffer that covers the top of the shot. Then pour out the shot and the buffer into your scale pan and find out what you new load of shot and buffering material weigh. You will then be able to know how many grains of shot to use and how many grains of buffering material to use for each shell.

Let's assume you started with one ounce of shot (437.5 grains) and you added 20 grains of buffering material. That gives you 457.5 grains of payload to consider for your load calculations. The 457.5 grains is far less than a 1 1/8 ounce load (about 547 grains), so I would use load data listed for 1 1/8 ounce loads for a buffered load weighing 457.5 grains. That way you are staying on the light side of the pressure factor, and I also do not use load data that is at or near the upper pressure levels in my loading manuals.

You certainly can reduce your shot load by 20 grains to add 20 grains of buffering, but I prefer to keep my preferred shot load and use the load data for the next level of shot loads. My load may not have as much velocity, but if it patterns well, that may be just what you are seeking.

Best wishes,
Dave Wile


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 Post subject: Re: Adding buffer to non buffered load data
PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2009 5:14 am 
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Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2007 5:21 am
Posts: 161
Location: Australia
From what I have read buffer adds more pressure than the few extra grains of weight would suggest, how much is the question?The therory is that buffer affects the way the shot/buffer flows though the forcing cones and chokes.


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 Post subject: Re: Adding buffer to non buffered load data
PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2009 8:53 am 
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Having reloaded my own buffered loads since the late 1970s, some of what I have been reading really scares me. The increase in pressures of up to 2500 PSI is an accurate one IF one is making the comparison using some of the slowest burning powders. Other powders are even less suited and raise pressures even higher and faster.
As mentioned, buffer raises pressures and it can be rather drastic. Removing an equal weight of shot as buffer is not a safe means of reducing these pressures, the buffering material causes greater impact on pressures than just the weight. One of the effects of using buffer is to prevent deformation of the pellets through contact with each other, it does this by reducing the amount of pellet movement while still inside the bore. This increases friction to an extent which then raises pressures. Also, the amount and rate of pressure rise is further affected by the type of buffer being used; they are not the same even within a single company. One brand may call for 15 grs of one type of buffer in a particular load to be safe while another brand using the same recipe (I have only seen this in Roster's manual, others have shown different recipes when using different powders) will show dangerous levels with that same buffer weight. The time in which a particular load reaches peak pressure is also affected which can then affect the operation of gas operated semi-auto shotguns. It can also affect ballistics and leave one with rather wildly erratic performance.
There is a reason the mainstream reloading manuals emphasize that one should only add buffer to those recipes calling for such, to do otherwise is quite unwise and unsafe. It is much like not stopping for stop signs and red lights: one may get away with it for a while but it eventually catches up to them.


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 Post subject: Re: Adding buffer to non buffered load data
PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2009 9:24 am 
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Joined: Sun Nov 21, 2004 11:00 am
Posts: 1009
This is the most DANGEROUS area one can tread into reloading shotgun shells; not even a safe area for someone with vast experience unless that experience is accompanied with an available pressure gun!

I remember many years ago when a fellow goose hunter was adding flour to his three inch handloads...... The Federal 3" plastic hulls were BLOWING THE RIMS WIDE OPEN almost every shot spraying hot gas everywhere! As the geese were flying high, ol' so and so continued shooting them! A testament of the strength of Remington's 870 and the stupidity some reloaders can sink too....

Slidehammer


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 Post subject: Re: Adding buffer to non buffered load data
PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2009 10:15 am 
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Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2008 7:48 pm
Posts: 194
Location: Mechanicsburg, PA
Hey folks,

After reading Ugly and Slide's posts, I re-read my earlier post to see if I said something that seemed inappropriate, and I think I should have noted that I do use published data for making buffered loads. I have a bunch of manuals, and a few of them are at or near the fifty year mark and use data for the old time wads. Most of my manuals, however, are targeted for the modern wads that are what most of us use today.

When making a buffered shot load, I get the combined shot weight and buffering material weight as I described above. I then use published buffered load data for the next higher load to give me a bigger cushion on the pressure curve. For instance, if I wanted to shoot a one ounce load of shot, I would check the weight of the shot and buffering material, insure it is less than the published data for a 1 1/8 ounce buffered load, and then use the data for a 1 1/8 ounce buffered load.

Whether it is shotshells or metallic cartridges, I tend to use the lighter side of published data. I am not too thrilled with the idea of getting my shoulder beat up, and I am not too thrilled about beating the actions of guns or burning the throats of my guns.

Best wishes,
Dave Wile


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 Post subject: Re: Adding buffer to non buffered load data
PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2009 6:42 pm 
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Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2007 6:47 pm
Posts: 25
I called Ballistic Products today and they said that on average buffer will increase pressure around 500psi. Basically the impression I got was that if I wasn't near max pressure I could add the buffer and expect a raise of 500psi. That being said, I am going the follow their advice and and email them the load data I am using and he said that their lab would be able to calculate how I could safely add buffer and what adjustments would need to be made. I am going to take apart the shells I loaded the other night (3) and reassemble them with known data. I have loaded pistol and rifle for around 15years and had no problems. I am fairly new to shotgun reloading and have no desire to run into problems now. I appreciate all the input you guys have provided me.


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 Post subject: Re: Adding buffer to non buffered load data
PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 3:58 am 
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Well first off before I comment on this subject I should first warn everyone that it is fairly well known that I venture out into "no published load data land" much more often than most people would think safe and sane. My load methods have proven safe with my guns and loading methods but may not with yours for follow my foot-steps at your own peril. All things considered though, I know for sure that I can at least tell you what not to do:

#1 - What your using for buffer makes a huge difference. In my experience flower is a big no-no the stuff is too fine and packs too easily to be used as a good buffer material. Don't use it unless you really are trying to blow yourself up. Next up is the old timer's/poor-man's "Cream of Wheat" (CW) buffer. That stuff works pretty good and for buffering "regular" size field loads in a given gauge it works just fine. For example I wouldn't hesitate to use it to buffer a 1-1/4oz 12ga. load but I wouldn't use it for a 1-7/8oz. 12ga. load or other high intensity loads such as home-made tri-ball loads. For that stuff you need something better. Best stuff I have found so far is the "Spherical Buffer" sold exclusively by Precision Reloading out of ND followed closely by the various teflon based buffers from BPI and most other commercial buffers fall some where in-between working a little better than CW but not by a whole bunch. When I say a buffer material is better than another I’m talking about two things a better buffer doesn’t raise pressure as much and makes for tighter patterns in order of respective importance. Flower makes incredibly tight patterns but that doesn’t do you any good when you have to resort to sub-sonic velocity levels to keep from blowing up your gun.

#2 – So long as you properly match your choice of buffer material to the intensity level of your load it doesn’t raise pressure all that much. For load data with book pressure test levels below 10-K I will just add the buffer to the load and load it like it is. For loads with book pressure levels above 10-K I step up to using the powder charge for the next heavier load. For example, using 1-5/8oz. powder charge levels for 1-1/2oz. loads seems to work just fine.

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