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 Post subject: Pistol Grip shotguns
PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 11:48 pm 
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Today we were out at the desert shooting. I have a Butler creek protector pistol grip+folding stock. It sucks. I lost the spring, and the stock was only held in place by a .38 shell I found on the ground and jammed it in there. Inevitably, that got loose and fell out too. So I just took off the stock and fired the rest of the rounds with pistol grip only.

I know, I know, that's only for breaching. However, it's sitting in my locker right now with pistol grip only. Why is that so awesomely appealing to me??? I know it's extremely inaccurate without a stock, I tried to shoot a lizard from maybe 7 meters and couldn't hit it with 3 shells. (I try to keep it away from my face due to no stock/recoil, and thus can't line up the sight very well, and usually shoot high whenever it's P grip only.) I know it hurts my wrist. I know it's useless like that except for the compact-ness. But why is it so freakin awesome like that? Looks amazing like that. Anybody agree with me? Think I'm crazy? Can anyone EXPLAIN that to me? Is there any merit to a pistol grip only shotgun for HD/SHTF?




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 Post subject: Re: Pistol Grip shotguns
PostPosted: Tue Apr 21, 2009 1:13 am 
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Project870 wrote:
I know it's extremely inaccurate without a stock... I know it hurts my wrist. I know it's useless like that except for the compact-ness. But why is it so freakin awesome like that?... Is there any merit to a pistol grip only shotgun for HD/SHTF?

New technology has provided new opportunities: http://shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=161932&p=1332906#p1332906.

By pushing a stockless, low-recoil Knoxx BreachersGrip™-equipped shotgun forward firmly away from a single-point, inflexible sling for stability, it can be controlled similarly to pulling a shotgun stock back to one's shoulder. The sling can be transitioned to hang the shotgun from the chest or the back and to allow a sidearm to be drawn. This single-point, inflexible sling method allows stable, more accurate repeated fire from stockless, moderate-recoil firearms.

I have replaced the original Mossberg tang safety on my Knoxx BreachersGrip-equipped Mossberg 500 Cruiser J.I.C. with a Cavalry Arms SST-590 Black Rugged Oversized Aluminum Safety. The beauty of the Cavalry Arms Oversized Safety is that it provides a work-around for accessing the tang safety on pistol-gripped Mossbergs, and it is easiest to manipulate with the right index finger by a right-handed shooter when it is used with a Knoxx BreachersGrip™. Using the Cavalry Arms safety does require a minor shift of the hand on the pistol grip, but not a radical hand movement as when manipulating the original Mossberg safety.

I think that installing a front sight that can be seen in the dark (for example, the TruGlo Tritium/Green Light Pipe sight) is the first priorty when modifying a shotgun for HD.

A secondary sighting option on a Knoxx BreachersGrip™-equipped shotgun could be a LaserMax LMS-UNI Uni-Max Red Laser. One's left thumb can flick the on/off switch of from either side without removing his left hand from the forend. Mr. Larry Vickers says, "At night and in conditions of limited visibility lasers are nothing short of awesome; they make accurate shooting easier than with any other sighting system currently on the market. Don’t get me wrong, night sights and white light have their place but a visible laser at night rules. Period."

An optional EOTech or reflex sight above the receiver will allow target sighting by red dot only, well below normal line-of-sight, so that one does not need to bring a pistol-gripped shotgun all the way up to his eye level. I am right-handed but left-eye dominant, so the EOTech gives me an advantage by letting me keep both eyes open. I would prefer the EOTech for easy, fast, precise target acquisition when patrolling the farm, yard, or neighborhood, or should I ever be outnumbered by attackers at slug distances.

Anyone that can legally own a shotgun can affordably equip a suitable short-barreled $200-$300 Mossberg or Remington with a $75 Knoxx BreachersGrip™ and proper sights, and then demonstrate that his pistol-gripped shotgun with an inflexible single-point sling can be repeatedly fired painlessly and accurately. Both of these proposals run counter to current popular belief. But seeing is believing.

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Last edited by wfb18 on Thu Apr 23, 2009 11:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Pistol Grip shotguns
PostPosted: Tue Apr 21, 2009 1:34 am 
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when i had a fold over pistol grip on my 20'' barrel 870 all of my buddies though that was the most bad a$$ looking gun theyve ever seen

then again, that was comming from a bunch of 20-something year olds who know very little about guns except for what they see in movies and video games

i thought the same thing too. it did look like some bad a$$ action-movie gun but if i ever had to do something with it i think id like to have the stock behind it. or a fixed pistol grip stock


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 Post subject: Re: Pistol Grip shotguns
PostPosted: Tue Apr 21, 2009 6:16 am 
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Yes, a shotgun with a PG is a very formidable weapon for HD. However one must practice to become proficient with it and to make consistant hits at the close range it will be used. It will not have the cotrollability of a SG with a stock, but a lot of practice will make you confident and proficient. At room clearing ranges, or from the seat of an automobile, there isn't much better on short notice. Some will disagree, but we have come to expect that haven't we.

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 Post subject: Re: Pistol Grip shotguns
PostPosted: Tue Apr 21, 2009 7:34 am 
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I will give you this......They "look" neat.

But any professional shotgun trainer will tell you that a pistol gripped "only" stock is a very poor performer for self defense.

No professional shotgun class I am aware of will allow you to attend without a full-length stock on your shotgun. I wonder why that is? :wink:

If you think "looks" will impress the bad guy, then get plastic surgery.

"Looks" don't matter when you are fighting for your life. Forget the pistol grip, and get a stock on that shotgun.

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 Post subject: Re: Pistol Grip shotguns
PostPosted: Tue Apr 21, 2009 6:45 pm 
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Old_Painless wrote:
I will give you this......They "look" neat.

But any professional shotgun trainer will tell you that a pistol gripped "only" stock is a very poor performer for self defense.

No professional shotgun class I am aware of will allow you to attend without a full-length stock on your shotgun. I wonder why that is? :wink:

If you think "looks" will impress the bad guy, then get plastic surgery.

"Looks" don't matter when you are fighting for your life. Forget the pistol grip, and get a stock on that shotgun.



I agree with you totally. I just ordered the Knoxx NRS STock. Anyone have any reviews of that thing?

Looks solid enough. It's basically a full length pistol grip stock.

*Sigh. I wonder when I will cease to be wooed by the looks of a pistol grip only shotgun.


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 Post subject: Re: Pistol Grip shotguns
PostPosted: Tue Apr 21, 2009 7:38 pm 
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You can also fire a PGO shotgun accurately (but not quickly at all) by just aiming it exactly like a pistol. That gets it far away enough from your face that you shouldn't have to worry about the recoil too much. Just make sure your support hand is completely clear of the slide's range of travel, in case it decides to come back (much more likely with a Knoxx grip).

A VFG may also help, but, can someone who prefers 870s explain how the action bars are held on? I've never examined one that close. Mossberg 500s, at least, are held on with roll pins (I've heard "spot welds," but I've never seen any welds on any) and that's it. I wouldn't trust the roll pins at all, to support a VFG. I would also get an actual vertical foregrip, not one of those angled front pistol grip things.

Something like the Super-Shorty forend is just about perfect for a PGO shotgun, though; a folding, aggressively knurled VFG, with the action bars TIG welded on, positioned as far back as physically possible with the action bar length.

My thoughts on recoil control with a rear PGO and VFG are essentially that you should be doing the exact same things you do when shooting a pistol, only with your hands further apart. Your strong hand on the PGO counteracts the rearward portion of the recoil, while your support hand on the VFG should be lightly pulling back, to counteract the muzzle flip. Exactly the recoil management technique inherent to the Weaver and modern iso stances.

IMO, a VFG is practically a necessity to pull that off. Either that, or put your support hand on top of the shotgun, like, uh... that hitman guy. In that show. With the SPAS 12 and AC-556. You just can't control muzzle rise on a PGO as effectively with a standard forend (at least I can't).

As far as practicality goes, I dunno. A full size shotgun without a stock is a lot harder to run, but it's not impossible. Just takes a lot more practice to achieve the same proficiency.

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 Post subject: Re: Pistol Grip shotguns
PostPosted: Tue Apr 21, 2009 7:52 pm 
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I inherited a 500 with a PG from my Grandpa It's fun to shoot thats it. Not going to be the go to gun when something happens.

But what about dual PG's for the Forend also that has to elp a little and take away some of the recoil?

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 Post subject: Re: Pistol Grip shotguns
PostPosted: Tue Apr 21, 2009 11:46 pm 
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DIESEL UP wrote:
But what about dual PG's for the Forend also that has to elp a little and take away some of the recoil?


arrkhal wrote:
My thoughts on recoil control with a rear PGO and VFG are essentially that you should be doing the exact same things you do when shooting a pistol, only with your hands further apart. Your strong hand on the PGO counteracts the rearward portion of the recoil, while your support hand on the VFG should be lightly pulling back, to counteract the muzzle flip. Exactly the recoil management technique inherent to the Weaver and modern iso stances...


The push/pull concept of recoil mitigation doesn't require VFGs at all, but a short/stubby VFG can help. Just reverse what you were thinking, Arrkhal; Pull back with the primary and push forward with the secondary hand on the forend.

Image

The 870's action bars are welded to the forend tube in a semi-circumferential manner, IIRC. VFGs will enhance any twist you put on the forearm, so a stubby grip like the one above goes a decent way to keep a person from binding up the action by reducing the amount you will torque things.

Again, NOT necessary for the push/pull thing, but nice to have when combined with a light as shown above, simply from a muscle memory standpoint:

Image
Image
Image

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 Post subject: Re: Pistol Grip shotguns
PostPosted: Wed Apr 22, 2009 1:49 am 
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Quote:
The push/pull concept of recoil mitigation doesn't require VFGs at all, but a short/stubby VFG can help. Just reverse what you were thinking, Arrkhal; Pull back with the primary and push forward with the secondary hand on the forend.


I've heard people recommend that with PGO shotguns before, and I still can't figure out how that'd be a very good idea in anything but ideal circumstances. Your support hand's a lot more likely to slip off a horizontal forend than your strong hand is to slip off the pistol grip. If your hands are sweaty or bloody and the recoil jars your support hand off the forend, while your other hand is pulling the gun back towards your face... ouchies.

Push-pull that way would give you a lot more leverage against the recoil if you hold onto it successfully, but it seems like there's just too much of a potential for disaster, unless you're shooting from the hip and/or using a VFG (or a stock, a stock's always good). Or low-recoil ammo. I tend to forget that not everyone likes running 3" magnums through an AOW.

Shooting from the shoulder, of course, is a lot more forgiving. I usually just pull back with both hands. Though from the shoulder, pushing forward on the forend would give the same leverage advantage, helping to mitigate muzzle rise... hm.

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 Post subject: Re: Pistol Grip shotguns
PostPosted: Wed Apr 22, 2009 8:15 pm 
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Hmmm interesting known the less. Serbu Super Shorty comes to mind for dual PG

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 Post subject: Re: Pistol Grip shotguns
PostPosted: Thu Apr 23, 2009 1:08 am 
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Project870 wrote:
Can anyone EXPLAIN that to me?


Testosterone.

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 Post subject: Re: Pistol Grip shotguns
PostPosted: Thu Apr 23, 2009 8:41 am 
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Greetings my friend...

I know a lot of people would disagree but I have both a pistol grip and a stock shotgun. I prefer my pistol grip for HD because of how it is set up:

500 Cruiser 6 Shot...
http://www.mossberg.com/products/defaul ... n=products

1) Load: 2-3/4, 00 Buck, Low Recoil From Either Federal or Hornady (Inside the house, you are better off with a low recoil ammo, and those mentioned above will give you a really tight pattern).

2) Sights: My Shotty Came With A White Dot Front Sight Which Is Very Visible (Was able to hit bullseye with a cheap Winchester Slug from WalMart @ 25 yards holding the gun as if it was a pistol). P.S. If you hold it firmly, the recoil won't make the gun hit your face, as believed.

3) Laser: Since The Big Issue With PG Only Shotgun Is Aiming, I Have Installed A Magazine Cap Laser From CDT. Works Great And You Hit The Target Everytime In Whatever Position You Choose To Use.

http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/SCP140-1.html

4) Sidesaddle: It Is Always Good To Carry Extra Ammo On Your Shotty. Mine Holds 6 On The Saddle And There Is Not A Significant Increase Of Weight And Maneuverability.

5) Maneuverability: Since It Is A Smaller Gun, It Is Easy To Move Around, Even In Tight Hallways.

6) Controllabitity: Compared To My Regular R870 Barrel, The Stand Off Device On My PG Along With The Low Recoil Ammo, Reduces The Overall Recoil And Muzzle Climb Significantly. The Forearm Comes With A Strap That Helps Holding The Front Of The Gun As Well.

7) Reliability: Even Though I Have A R870 And Love It, The Mossberg Was The Only Shotty To Pass The U. S. Military Mil-Spec 3443 Standards. Also, It Features The Anti-Jam Elevator And Positive Shot Shell Extraction And Ejection.

8) Price: Very Good For What You Get

9) Looks: Last But Not Least, It Looks Bad @$$!




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