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 Post subject: long range tactical shotgun
PostPosted: Sun Jun 21, 2009 7:09 am 
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I took my Remington 870 Desert Recon with 512 EOTech to the range yesterday. I was shooting 100 yard shots. I was using Remington Slugger 1oz slugs and all 20 shots were in a 12" diameter. I think I could have done better if my old eyes would have been able to focus better at that distance. The range master said I should get the EOTech magnifier to overcome the old eyes. He said it was easy spending my money!



My questions are;



1. Is there such a thing as long range shotgun fire?

2. Would a 1oz slug be more effective than a bullet on zombies?

3. If you can effectively shoot slugs at 100 yards, why do you use buckshot at 25 yards?



I am really interested in your thoughts.


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 Post subject: Re: long range tactical shotgun
PostPosted: Sun Jun 21, 2009 10:07 am 
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Wlecome to the board. I kind of grew up in the Galleria/Bellaire area and my dad lives in Westchase.

roncarron wrote:
I took my Remington 870 Desert Recon with 512 EOTech to the range yesterday. I was shooting 100 yard shots. I was using Remington Slugger 1oz slugs and all 20 shots were in a 12" diameter. I think I could have done better if my old eyes would have been able to focus better at that distance. The range master said I should get the EOTech magnifier to overcome the old eyes. He said it was easy spending my money!

The magnifier is nice. I wasn't sure about it, but after getting one I wish I had done it sooner. They are not cheap unless you can find a good used one.
Quote:
My questions are;
1. Is there such a thing as long range shotgun fire?

Sure. The SGT had a shotgun called the Urban Sniper that was an 1187 with bipod and a low-power glass on it. I don't remember what the accuracy specs were, but there was one. Ithica has recently come out with a similar "solution" with a pump gun, which is a little silly. There are also dedicated slug guns out there built on bolt actions. While they may make up for some of the shortcomings of long range shooting they generally have a magazine capacity of like two rounds and they operate relatively slowly. The ones with fully rifled barrels also in effect limit you to only using slugs.
The problem with long range shotgun fire is that it is only long range for pistols and shotguns. Long range for a shotgun is really relatively close for carbines and shotguns. And while there is still a very heavy and relatively fast hunk of metal moving downrange, shotgun exterior ballistics are not that great when you are getting out there. The ballistic path and velocity drop is moving downward pretty quickly.
Quote:
2. Would a 1oz slug be more effective than a bullet on zombies?

Maybe. It will deliver a metric buttload of Pb somewhere at what is probably still a prety good velocity. You may not be able to deliver it as accurately as you can with a conventional rifle or carbine, or as quickly, and capacity may be an issue. Shotguns typically are not accuracy rigs, but as you've seen they can do the job. I had an 870P with SGT ghost rings on it that I could hit a head-sized plate standing at a little over 100 yards. Didn't think I could do, a friend bet me that I could, and I did it five times with some Winchester 3" sabots. So while it will do, there are some considerations (which may not even be valid for some) to keep in mind.
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3. If you can effectively shoot slugs at 100 yards, why do you use buckshot at 25 yards?

Because slugs are specialty rounds basically. They are deployed when you want accuracy and/or penetration. In the accuracy side, you have to worry about the wadding in some circumstances. In the case of penetration, that is a case where you actually do have to worry about overpenetration. With that said, there are some LEOs and some departments that only use slugs and don't use buckshot. Buckshot also "patterns" which puts more wound tracks into a target, which allows more holes for blood to get out to get hypovolemia quicker. There are some that see the buckshot as allowing for aiming errors, but I would prefer not to see it that way and I definitely don't want to rely on it.
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I am really interested in your thoughts.

You got em.

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 Post subject: Re: long range tactical shotgun
PostPosted: Sun Jun 21, 2009 10:11 am 
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#3

Slugs are devestating but only make one wound path.

With buckshot each pellet makes its own wound path causing more damage to a wider area giving you a better chance to hit vitals.

besides lets see a slug make this size hole

Federal flight conrtol 9 pellet 00 buck 2 /34 inch. #PFC 00154 @ 26 feet (just over 9 yards)
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 Post subject: Re: long range tactical shotgun
PostPosted: Sun Jun 21, 2009 10:24 am 
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First off, I think you should be happy you shot as well as you did. If I were you, I wouldn't make any changes to a gun that is already performing well for you!

Unless you have a rifled barrel on your shotgun shooting sabots, 100 yards is really about the maximum range you would ever really want to shoot with a shotgun. Given this, I think a magnifier would limit your field of view and reduce the all-around effectiveness of your shotgun. I also don't think you'll get rifle type accuracy with a smooth bore, so you may not be able to tighten your groups, even if you did add the magnifier.

If you want to create a long-range shotgun, then you should start with a slug barrel, sabot slug shells, and then add your EoTech and a magnifier or some other quality optics with magnification. That will tighten your groups as well as increase your range to 200 yards + or -.

Andrew


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 Post subject: Re: long range tactical shotgun
PostPosted: Sun Jun 21, 2009 10:26 am 
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EBK wrote:
#3

Slugs are devestating but only make one wound path.

With buckshot each pellet makes its own wound path causing more damage to a wider area giving you a better chance to hit vitals.

besides lets see a slug make this size hole

Federal flight conrtol 9 pellet 00 buck 2 /34 inch. #PFC 00154 @ 26 feet (just over 9 yards)
Image


Since the range was only 9 yards, I bet the shotgun wad was what ripped the biggest hole in the paper...

Andrew


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 Post subject: Re: long range tactical shotgun
PostPosted: Sun Jun 21, 2009 10:38 am 
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amblackm wrote:
EBK wrote:
#3

Slugs are devestating but only make one wound path.

With buckshot each pellet makes its own wound path causing more damage to a wider area giving you a better chance to hit vitals.

besides lets see a slug make this size hole

Federal flight conrtol 9 pellet 00 buck 2 /34 inch. #PFC 00154 @ 26 feet (just over 9 yards)
Image


Since the range was only 9 yards, I bet the shotgun wad was what ripped the biggest hole in the paper...

Andrew


yes you are right but all the pellets hit in that same hole and if it had been a BG each pellet would then make its own path through the body.

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 Post subject: Re: long range tactical shotgun
PostPosted: Sun Jun 21, 2009 11:04 am 
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Yeah, but at that range the slug wouldnt have hit vital organs, it would have removed them.




You guys have me wanting to build a tactical slug rig. :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: long range tactical shotgun
PostPosted: Sun Jun 21, 2009 11:48 am 
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RaisedByWolves wrote:
Yeah, but at that range the slug wouldnt have hit vital organs, it would have removed them.




You guys have me wanting to build a tactical slug rig. :wink:

I've shot the Urban Sniper, and it was a good shooter. Being able to dump that much lead at one time in one place with pretty good accuracy is fun, but I've never had enough desire to actually get one of my own.
I would definitely use a semi to do it though.

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 Post subject: Re: long range tactical shotgun
PostPosted: Sun Jun 21, 2009 4:51 pm 
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You've got some good answers, but here's my take on them.

roncarron wrote:
I took my Remington 870 Desert Recon with 512 EOTech to the range yesterday. I was shooting 100 yard shots. I was using Remington Slugger 1oz slugs and all 20 shots were in a 12" diameter. I think I could have done better if my old eyes would have been able to focus better at that distance. The range master said I should get the EOTech magnifier to overcome the old eyes. He said it was easy spending my money!

My questions are;

1. Is there such a thing as long range shotgun fire?


Sure. At the Thunder Ranch Defensive Shotgun Course, we shot up to 80 yards or so. I had a shotgun with rifle sights and did pretty well. Those with only a bead could keep them on the man-sized targets, but could not group the shots very close together.

My friend has a slug gun with a scope for deer hunting, and he is very accurate to about 100 yards.

Quote:
2. Would a 1oz slug be more effective than a bullet on zombies?


There is no such thing as a zombie. :wink:

Quote:
3. If you can effectively shoot slugs at 100 yards, why do you use buckshot at 25 yards?

I am really interested in your thoughts.


Slugs can cause problems in home defense with over-penetration, i.e., they can fully penetrate a bad guy and then still have enough energy to do a lot of damage down range.

Buckshot tends to usually stop inside a bad guy. Slugs have a lot of wounding effect, but so do 9 pellets of 00 buckshot.

As mentioned, larger patterns with buckshot are not really dersiable, as you don't want any of the buckshot to miss the bad guy. You want small patterns, so that all pellets hit the target.

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 Post subject: Re: long range tactical shotgun
PostPosted: Sun Jun 21, 2009 5:30 pm 
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When I was sighting in my reddot on my Mossberg I started at 50yards then checked it at 100 yards. I had it a few inches high at 50 and it was hitting a few inches low at 100 (about what I wanted). It did very well at both ranges so I tried the 200 yard line just for fun. I aimed at the top of the target and when I walked down range I saw a bunch of big long gouges in the grass 25 to 50 yards before the target. I went back and aimed about six feet high and could see puffs of dust coming from the berm but when I went downrange there were no holes in the target. I checked the berm and almost at the very bottom of the berm right between the legs of the target I found where my slugs were hitting. I even dug a couple out to make sure they were my slugs (not too many others shooting 12 gauge at the 200 yard line). Anyway I gave up after that. I'm sure it was accurate enough to hit a man size target at 200 yards but I figured the hold over would have to be something like nine or ten feet above point of impact.
Lessons learned:
I'm confidant in my ability to make hits out to 100 yards
100 yards is about the weapons practical limit
Beyond that slugs drop like a rock

EDIT: Here's a pic of that "Urban Sniper" made by ScatterGun Technologies:
Image
It would make for interesting discussion. I remember reading an article on it quite a few years ago but don't really remember anything other than that it was a "sniper" shotgun.


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 Post subject: Re: long range tactical shotgun
PostPosted: Sun Jun 21, 2009 9:27 pm 
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I have the same shotgun and an Eotech sight I plan to try on it. With a rifled choke I plan to see what it will do next weekend with slugs.


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 Post subject: Re: long range tactical shotgun
PostPosted: Sun Jun 21, 2009 9:44 pm 
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Great discussion! I'd be intersted in hearing more about rifled barrels and 200 yard shots. I've seen some sabot slugs with plastic points that make them look like they would carry pretty well. Maybe with a more powerful load? 3" or 3.5" shells? Never actually seen a .50 cal sniper round. 12G being ~.56cal, how do they compare?


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 Post subject: Re: long range tactical shotgun
PostPosted: Sun Jun 21, 2009 10:38 pm 
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There is pretty much absolutely no comparison between a .50 round and a 12 gauge round.

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 Post subject: Re: long range tactical shotgun
PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2009 7:20 am 
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Winchester lists a 3" 300 grain sabot slug at 2100 fps (2937 ft-lbs of energy). A standard .50 BMG load is a 700 grain bullet at 2978 fps (13,971 ft-lbs of energy). Like m24shoother said: "There is pretty much absolutely no comparison between a .50 round and a 12 gauge round."
The .50 likely has more energy at 1000 yards than the 12 gauge has at the muzzle.

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 Post subject: Re: long range tactical shotgun
PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2009 9:39 am 
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Good data there, thanks.

So what determines the max load a gun can handle? The barrel? Recoil mechanism? Could an aftermarket barrel be made for a standard shotgun to increase it's power/accuracy at long distances?


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 Post subject: Re: long range tactical shotgun
PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2009 9:48 am 
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Usually it would be the reciever, barrel, and bolt. Gas system could play a part in that as well.
The shotgun is typically a low pressure system.

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 Post subject: Re: long range tactical shotgun
PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2009 9:53 am 
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DTakas wrote:
EDIT: Here's a pic of that "Urban Sniper" made by ScatterGun Technologies:
Image
It would make for interesting discussion. I remember reading an article on it quite a few years ago but don't really remember anything other than that it was a "sniper" shotgun.

WE have a project on the books like this. Going to mate a 930 Rifled barrel, optic and some of the various saboted slugs for a dedicated slug gun. Also doing the same work on a 930HS for a agency. They need a shotgun for using Poly Shocks in a restricted enviroment.

That said, long range and shotgun don't realy go well together.

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 Post subject: Re: long range tactical shotgun
PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2009 10:10 am 
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m24shooter wrote:
The shotgun is typically a low pressure system.


I think most shotguns shells are supposed to produce in the neighborhood of 10,000 to 12,000 psi. Hell, .38spl makes about 18,000 and .30-06 about 60,000.

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 Post subject: Re: long range tactical shotgun
PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2009 10:15 am 
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Desert01 wrote:
DTakas wrote:
EDIT: Here's a pic of that "Urban Sniper" made by ScatterGun Technologies:
Image
It would make for interesting discussion. I remember reading an article on it quite a few years ago but don't really remember anything other than that it was a "sniper" shotgun.

WE have a project on the books like this. Going to mate a 930 Rifled barrel, optic and some of the various saboted slugs for a dedicated slug gun. Also doing the same work on a 930HS for a agency. They need a shotgun for using Poly Shocks in a restricted enviroment.

That said, long range and shotgun don't realy go well together.

Uh oh, I think my pants just got tight.

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 Post subject: Re: long range tactical shotgun
PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2009 10:17 am 
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sjohnny wrote:
m24shooter wrote:
The shotgun is typically a low pressure system.


I think most shotguns shells are supposed to produce in the neighborhood of 10,000 to 12,000 psi. Hell, .38spl makes about 18,000 and .30-06 about 60,000.

And that is why the shotgun typically weighs 8 or 9 pounds and the TAC 50 weighs 26.

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