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 Post subject: New Geco SxS
PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 10:16 am 
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I have a really nice looking SxS on the way and I should have it by weeks end. It is in great shape other than a chip out of the toe of the stock which should be an easy fix.

I had not heard of these German Geco shotguns before. It is a 12 gauge 2 3/4" chamber with 30" barrels and half/full chokes.

I guess half is between IC and Modified?


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 Post subject: Re: New Geco SxS
PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 1:08 pm 
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GECOs were made by Simson, I believe. Then there is Sauer, all are almost identical guns.

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"I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people...to disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."..
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 Post subject: Re: New Geco SxS
PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2009 11:01 pm 
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OK. Well, I have the feeling I am going to really enjoy this gun.


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 Post subject: Re: New Geco SxS
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 1:45 am 
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Patriot usa wrote:
GECOs were made by Simson, I believe. Then there is Sauer, all are almost identical guns.


Hi Patriot usa,

no, the Geco shotguns were made by J. P. Sauer.

@Carignan Salieres,

if you'd tell the serial number, I can say when it was made. But there should be present a proof date anyway, so this will be the easier way to find out.

Regards

Martin

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 Post subject: Re: New Geco SxS
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 7:45 am 
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Sauerfan, you are correct. I saw one on the net with S over S on the watertable. I did read that Simson also made them, but maybe not.

I picked up off GB a 1931 model 180 sxs 16ga. Someone used but really took care of it; most of the cc is gone but you really have to look to see any marks anywhere. Beautiful engraving on the floor plate. The gun just oozes with quality.

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over the hill and picking up speed.

"I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people...to disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."..
founding father George Mason.


Last edited by Patriot usa on Tue Dec 22, 2009 7:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: New Geco SxS
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 8:21 am 
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Hi Patriot usa,

thanks for the link. There, I can only see one single photo (?). What I can make out on this photo are two German proof markings (Imperial eagle and crown/S = proof for shot gun barrels) and partially Sauer’s logo, the wild man with the club

Image

Regards

Martin

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 Post subject: Re: New Geco SxS
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 11:43 am 
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OK, try it now; it was set on private; I switched it to public.

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over the hill and picking up speed.

"I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people...to disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."..
founding father George Mason.


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 Post subject: Re: New Geco SxS
PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 5:15 am 
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Hi Patriot usa,

thanks, now I can see all photos.

I’m confused.

This isn’t a Geco, or? At least, I can’t make out any Geco markings – just pure Sauer.

As far as the action is concerned: I’m even more confused. Action is like a “Habicht” model – but with nice engravings. It isn’t a model VIII, as it has no cocking indicators. It isn’t a model X, as it has a Greener cross bolt. The model VIII is the closest match – but not a perfect match.

So, what is it? I checked all my Sauer catalogs and did not find this model.

You mentioned “model 180”. Why do you think, this could be a “model 180”. As far as I know, Sauer never used this model designation.

Regards

Martin

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 Post subject: Re: New Geco SxS
PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 12:12 pm 
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If you read my previous post they are the pics are of a Sauer 1931 16 I recently bought. Model 180 was a model number given to it by VL&D. The gun was evidently sold by Abercrombie and Fitch after they took over VL&D as it is in the A&F 1933 reprint catalog I just got from http://www.cornellpubs.com.

Here is a thread that extensively covers the gun.
http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubb ... Post154795

This is the Geco I was referring to. It has the pic of S over S on the watertable.

http://www.auctionarms.com/Search/Displ ... um=9232465

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"I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people...to disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."..
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 Post subject: Re: New Geco SxS
PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 12:21 pm 
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Hi Patriot usa,

OK, so this "model 180" is a vL & D designation. Interesting. Seems to be a model created for exportation. As I said: a shotgun with all the features of yours isn't shown/described in any Sauer catalog. And I have a few.

Regards

Martin

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 Post subject: Re: New Geco SxS
PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 12:25 pm 
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Hello Sauerfan,

You replied pretty quick as I was editing my post. Did you notice the 'doublegunshop' post?

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over the hill and picking up speed.

"I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people...to disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."..
founding father George Mason.


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 Post subject: Re: New Geco SxS
PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 12:53 pm 
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Hi Patriot usa,

thanks for your newest and for editing your post. Ah, now I understand. Yes, the Geco shotgun on AA is a Sauer, no doubt.

Yes, I read the complete post on “doublegunshop”. Well, the fellows on the other forum made some nice and true remarks, especially in pointing out the differences of the Sauer models VIII, XIV and so on. As I said: it falls through the system a little bit. Yours seems to be an “intermediate” model between the “Habicht”, what was Sauer’s low budget model and a model VIII. The VIII has the same engravings, but has as a standard cocking indicators on the sides of the receiver (hammer axle has a visible rib) – your’s has not. The model X looks like yours (no cocking indicators on sides) – but has a different locking system.

Also, I liked the remarks on the other forum about German proofs. But! The user “ellenbr” is referring to Wirnsberger’s book about proof marks. What is OK. But Wirnsberger’s book is filled with mistakes and wrong assumptions, especially, as German proofs are concerned. You always should be very careful when reference is made to Wirnsberger’s book.

Regards

Martin

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 Post subject: Re: New Geco SxS
PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 1:55 pm 
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Near by vendor has a Sauer with quite a bit of beautiful engraving and a curved receiver ledge like a Merkel, scalloped receiver, cocking indicators and ejectors in about 95% condition. Have any idea what model and worth it would be?

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over the hill and picking up speed.

"I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people...to disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."..
founding father George Mason.


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 Post subject: Re: New Geco SxS
PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 6:20 pm 
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Joined: Sat Aug 04, 2007 9:47 am
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Location: BC-Canada
When my Geco arrived I unwrapped it and it looked great. I cracked the barrels and they looked shiny. I placed 2 snap caps in the barrels and closed the action-very tight, cocking indicators were working and the auto safety was as well.. I snapped both barrels and the firing pins sounded strong, the indicators did their job too. I shouldered it and it felt natural and pointed well with my line of sight right along the raised rib.

In short-I love it!


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 Post subject: Re: New Geco SxS
PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2009 3:28 am 
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Hi Patriot usa,

provided, that you are talking about a prewar SxS shotgun, it could be:

1/ a model XVII (= 17)
2/ a model XXIX C (= 29 C)
3/ a model XVIII E (= 19 E) “Meisterwerk“ (master piece)

Image

all three do have in common the features:

- curved receiver ledge
- ejectors
- two screws: one over and one under the cocking indicator. Look out for these TWO screws! If two are present, it has catch bars, what makes the action desirable. And more valuable.

In any case: go for it. These are definitely the better Sauers. If it should be a “Meisterwerk” (rich engravings) don’t hesitate a second. Rare and expensive.

As far as the value is concerned: well, I don’t have an idea what $$$ such a gun will bring in the US. In general, Sauers are underrated. But I can tell you at least the prices of 1938 (the images are from Sauer’s 1938 catalog):

Model VIII (Sauers topseller at this time): 230 RM (Reichsmark)
Model XVII: 485 RM
Model XXIX C: 700 RM
Model XVIII E: 1100 RM and more (depending on the grade of the engravings).

You see? If we take the model’s 8 price as a value for your vL & D model 180, the XVII has double the value of yours. And this might be a help for today’s market situation. To give you a better idea about the value of the Reichsmark and the Sauers, respectively: a Browning Auto 5 automatic shotgun was available for 155 RM in 1927.

@ Carignan Salieres,

Sorry for hijacking your thread. Back to your Geco:

Regarding the maker(s) of the Gecos, I have to correct my remarks. Seems, Sauer wasn’t the only maker of Geco shotguns. In Geco’s 1927 catalog Geco shotguns are shown which don’t look like they were made by Sauer.

Image
Image
Image

Does yours look like this or like the one “Patriot usa” mentioned ( his AA auction link) ?

Regards

Martin

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Value? Open an auction at GB or AA and in two weeks you'll know exactly....


Last edited by sauerfan on Thu Jul 30, 2009 9:00 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: New Geco SxS
PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2009 7:53 am 
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Joined: Sat Aug 04, 2007 9:47 am
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No worries, I find it interesting.

Here is the Geco:
Image
Image
Image
Image


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 Post subject: Re: New Geco SxS
PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2009 8:06 am 
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Hi Carignan Salieres,

thanks for showing. Nice gun!

Can you please show us also the markings on the watertable of the receiver and of the markings on the barrels? What's the serial number?

Regards

Martin

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 Post subject: Re: New Geco SxS
PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2009 8:10 am 
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Serial is 400050
Image
Image
Image


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 Post subject: Re: New Geco SxS
PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2009 8:56 am 
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Hi Carignan Salieres,

thanks for showing. Yes, it is a Sauer. But made by Sauer & Sohn in Eckernförde, West Germany. Your Geco is based on a post war Sauer model VIII with some differences (the trigger bar is mounted at the bottom of the receiver, while on the Sauer VIII it is mounted on top). Here’s a page of a Sauer/West Germany catalog from the 50s showing the Sauer VIII:

Image

Note: the screw is above the cocking indicators (bar mounted on top), while the screw of yours is at the bottom i. e. below the indicator.

See the proofs: West German proofs and the proof date is December 1955. See the oak leaf: this is the old crest of the proof house in Kiel. Well, actually, the proof procedure was (still is) carried out in the cellar of the Sauer plant in Eckernförde.

Regards

Martin

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 Post subject: Re: New Geco SxS
PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2009 9:16 am 
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I think that is the best condition Geco I've seen! :shock:

Sauerfan, here is the type receiver ledge I'm talking about on the Sauer by the house.

http://www.gunsinternational.com/popup. ... 49-1-l.jpg

Also, I have seen Sauers marked 'prussian'; are all Prussian guns marked so? I see some advertised as Prussian with no such mark.

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"I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people...to disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."..
founding father George Mason.


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