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 Post subject: Repy To The Slam Firing Of A 870 Wingmaster
PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2009 12:15 am 
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Joined: Fri Feb 10, 2006 10:37 pm
Posts: 631
Location: My House In New Jersey
I am not here to bash Remington as many that read my post think I am.
I own a Remington 12 Gauge 11-87 Premier, a Remington 12 Gauge 1100 Classic Field and a Remington 750 Woodsmaster Rifle in .308 Winchester Caliber, all bought new.
I love the three of them and would never sell them.
I was just comparing my old Ithaca's with my new 12 Gauge 870 Wingmaster.
I am not trying to be a smart a$$ writing this post, and maybe I could learn something as I am not an expert on pump action shotguns.
Why did Winchester put this feature on their Model 12s for many years, Ithaca did on their Model 37s for many years if there was no need for it. I also read that Remington 870's made in the 1950's had this feature.
I have talked to Police Officers, Prison Guards and people in the military that have used the old models that slam fired and they all say the same thing. They should have never taken that option off the gun.
Is it the anti-gun people or the liberal people in Washington that had this feature taken off shotguns, or was it a cost cutting idea by the manufactures?
I like that option on a pump shotgun and would have never bought a new Wingmaster or any other manufacture's brand if they didn't have it. I know now.
As far as beating the hell out of a shotgun by slam firing it, I don't think it hurts the gun at all as I have been told it was made for that purpose, and the way I do it maybe once or twice a year with less than 10 rounds I think my shotguns will outlast my great grand kids.
I just like that option on a shotgun and I am entiled to my opinion as this is still a free country and you can express your views.
No bashing of Remington as I think they are a great company, but all companys sometime need to know what people think.
Regards,
Fred

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 Post subject: Re: Repy To The Slam Firing Of A 870 Wingmaster
PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2009 12:42 am 
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Joined: Fri May 22, 2009 6:19 am
Posts: 284
.


Last edited by yesno on Fri Aug 21, 2009 12:11 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Repy To The Slam Firing Of A 870 Wingmaster
PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2009 4:29 am 
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Joined: Fri Oct 21, 2005 11:06 pm
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John Browning designed the M37 to fire like that, so I doubt it will hurt it. Here is what the patent says

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 Post subject: Re: Repy To The Slam Firing Of A 870 Wingmaster
PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2009 5:04 am 
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All the firearms manufacturers eventually added interrupters to their pumps so that one has to release the trigger and pull it after the pump handle is locked forward in order to fire the gun. Not having an interrupter was never a "feature", rather it was something that the manufacurers had not felt was required. To my knowledge the very first Wingmasters had one. All the semi automatics had always had one too, and that is what kept them from being fully automatics. When the Wingmaster evolved from the Model 11-48 I always assumed it got the interrupter as an improvement. I am not familiar with previous Remington pump shotgun designs.
I do not think any of the liberals or Washington had any influence on the decision to start including interrupters on shotguns, but other manufacturers saw the favorable reviews that the 870 was receiving for having one, and I know they were getting their butts handed to them by the 870 in sales. It is my understanding that a lot of people unintentionally fired pump guns when they closed the action on the old designs, especially when they were learning, and a lot of people period had trouble firing the guns accurately slam firing them either intentionally or not, certain exhibition shooters not withstanding. The later Model 37s, and 87s, and the Winchester Model 12 reproductions had them, and all the new pumps since the 870 have had them that I am aware of.
If you like it so much, you should be able to either remove the interrupter yourself or have a gunsmith do it for you, but with the firing pin design of the current 870 I do not know if it would work or not without lightening the firing pin spring as well and other modifications. And, if anyone should ever borrow it and have an accident, even if it was totally unrelated, then someone's lawyer will no doubt try to make some hay with the issue in my opinion. Many years ago I "heard" some people did the same thing with .22 semi autos, making them machine guns in the process, and fortunately none of the major networks or the BATF got wind of it..

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 Post subject: Re: Repy To The Slam Firing Of A 870 Wingmaster
PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2009 1:26 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 9:34 am
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Location: North Central, Washington
Virginian is correct. It was never a feature. Manufacturers never thought the average shooter would be slam firing the guns. But then came the mall ninja mentality and for legal protection interrupters were added.


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 Post subject: Re: Repy To The Slam Firing Of A 870 Wingmaster
PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2009 3:17 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2007 5:35 pm
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Location: Las Vegas, Nevada
I believe they started incorporating the interrupter as a safety
feature to keep people from firing the gun accidentally. A friend
of mine shot someones model 12 and fired it accidentally because
he forgot to let up on the trigger. It went like this. The gun was
loaded with several rounds, and someone threw a tin can for him
to shoot at. He shot at it and hit it, and then he proceeded to lower
the gun from his shoulder to waist level. As he did that he also
pumped the action to eject the spent shell and load another
round. As the gun came to rest with the stock laying along his hip
bone, he also was closing the guns action, which caused the gun
to fire again, this time from the hip. It made for a very impressive
second shot, because he again hit the same can that was still up
in the air, and it was completely by accident. You can see that
this might have caused a real problem if he happened to have
turned sideways while lowering the gun and working the action,
it is possible he might have hit someone beside him. For some
one really familiar with the gun, no problem, but you also have
the possibility of some klutz shooting the thing.

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 Post subject: Re: Repy To The Slam Firing Of A 870 Wingmaster
PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2009 7:27 pm 
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Freds484 wrote:
They should have never taken that option off the gun.
Is it the anti-gun people or the liberal people in Washington that had this feature taken off shotguns, or was it a cost cutting idea by the manufactures?


It is a safety feature.

As far as cost goes, it is adding parts which ads to the initial design costs and to subsequent production cost so it is actually more costly.

I have shot pump shotguns for 40 years in compedative trap, also a fair amount of skeet and some sporting clays use; they are a favorite of min for upland game. I never had a need for a gun that "slam fires". IMHO, that is pretty representative of most sport shooters, so that is one reason why they have the interupter.


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 Post subject: Re: Repy To The Slam Firing Of A 870 Wingmaster
PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2009 7:47 pm 
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yesno wrote:
12 shells in 1.73 seconds. last seconds of video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B6bKbqSd ... r_embedded
So much for hurting one by way of slam firing.....


And just exactly how is that pertinent to a discussion about slam firing a pump gun ? That was a semi auto, and yes, it does have an interruptor.

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 Post subject: Re: Repy To The Slam Firing Of A 870 Wingmaster
PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2009 11:45 pm 
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I apologise if I came off as offensive. I see no need to slamfire a gun even in a defensive situation. You could probably practice enough to be able to do it acuratly but it's just not benificial. I don't know the mechanics of it but I would be afraid to modify a gun to do it because you could possibly fire it before the bolt is locked (or even closed) and that wouldn't be good.

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 Post subject: Re: Repy To The Slam Firing Of A 870 Wingmaster
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 4:31 am 
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contrary to popular belief the M37 and other so called slam fire shotguns do have a disconnector. If they did not, the hammer would follow the bolt home and not fire the shell. You can not simply remove the disconnector and get it to work.They basically have a full auto fire control group in a manually activated weapon. Yes, is was by design on the M37 (also known as the Remington model 17). If you have ever had the fire control group apart or read Browning's patent you can see that. There is a cam that releases the hammer once the bolt closes if you hold the trigger back. This cam only engages when the trigger is held back. If the cam wasn't there the gun would not slam fire. Read the part of the patent starting at line 10 in my pervious post. "The gun may also be fired by pulling the trigger during the forward movement of the slide. This will hold the trigger-extension free from the trigger notch, and the hammer will then be released for firing by the action of the cam 104 on the slide, depressing the stop 100 and releasing sear-notch 98 from the hammer-tooth 99."

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 Post subject: Re: Repy To The Slam Firing Of A 870 Wingmaster
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 11:09 am 
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Banshee, you are correct of course. I apologise if it sounded like I was contradicting you. I should have said they modified the action. Those guns and I never much liked each other anyway.

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I do not trust Remington's dating service accuracy. If they were Match.com, you could end up with Nancy Pelosi.


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 Post subject: Re: Repy To The Slam Firing Of A 870 Wingmaster
PostPosted: Tue Aug 18, 2009 11:43 am 
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Joined: Mon May 31, 2004 8:23 pm
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I'm sure there's plenty of quality used, serviceable guns out there ready for a second life. Why not purchase one with the features you like? I understand you have preferences... I don't like S&W's new internal lock so I purchase pre-lock guns.


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 Post subject: Re: Repy To The Slam Firing Of A 870 Wingmaster
PostPosted: Sun Aug 23, 2009 4:04 am 
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I own a 1927 Remington Model 10 12ga pump shotgun it will slam fire. I did not konw that any Model 870's would slam fire my 1975 Wingmaster will not. My 1976 Ithaca Model 37 will not. I beleive I read on SGW,but not sure that Ithaca Model 37's made after 1975 would not slam fire. Ithaca folks will give more insite on what year the Model 37 will/will not slam fire.


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 Post subject: Re: Repy To The Slam Firing Of A 870 Wingmaster
PostPosted: Wed Aug 26, 2009 9:24 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jan 24, 2006 10:55 pm
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Location: COLUMBIA, md
Remington says my oldest 870 was made "around 1951". The barrel code is WW, Nov 50.

No slam fire feature and glad I am of it.

Slam firing does go through ammo at an impressive rate. What it doesn't do is make solid hits.

A decent hand with an 870 or similar can get off five solid hits in under 4 seconds. Good ones do it closer to 3. Miculek does it in about 2.7. That's with a worked over 870 with an interrupter.

IOW, expertise triumphs over gadgetry.

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