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 Post subject: New Baker Side by Side Shotgun
PostPosted: Mon Aug 03, 2009 7:30 pm 
Field Grade

Joined: Sat Apr 12, 2008 7:59 pm
Posts: 24
I need some help with this shotgun. This is what I know I have;
New Baker Side by Side 12 Ga. - appears to be a damascus barrel - it twists
Exposed hammers - 2 triggers
Lever lock
some scroll work on the raised center rib
I can't find a serial number or any other ID. It needs a lot of cleaning, mostly surface rust
I thank you for your help,


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 Post subject: Re: New Baker Side by Side Shotgun
PostPosted: Mon Aug 03, 2009 7:45 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Wed Dec 24, 2008 10:42 pm
Posts: 3639
Your shotgun was made by the Baker Gun & Forging Company of Syracuse,NY (1885 to 1889) and Batavia,NY (1890 to 1919). You have the model name correct. The gun was made between 1887 to 1894 in 10 and 12 gauges with 30 or 32 inch twist (damascus) barrels. Open the barrels and look on the flat part of the watertable (the flat part of the frame where the barrels close up) or the bottom of the barrels for the serial number. Sorry but I don't have any serial number-year made tables for this gun. If the gun is rusty, then it's going to be in fair to poor condition.
Since it has damascus barrels. I don't recommend you try to shoot it. Just clean it up and put it on the wall or in the gun cabinet.


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 Post subject: Re: New Baker Side by Side Shotgun
PostPosted: Mon Aug 03, 2009 8:02 pm 
Field Grade

Joined: Sat Apr 12, 2008 7:59 pm
Posts: 24
After taking it apart, The numbers all match up. The serial number is 19086


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 Post subject: Re: New Baker Side by Side Shotgun
PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 9:49 am 
Crown Grade

Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2007 11:12 am
Posts: 3393
Location: WA/AK
These "New Baker" trigger-plate hammer doubles based on A.C. McFarland's Patent No. 370,966 granted Oct 4, 1887, were introduced by Syracuse Forging & Gun Co. in 1887. The factory in Syracuse burned in 1888 and the company moved to Batavia, NY. The company name was changed to the Baker Gun & Forging Co. in April 1890. There is a very thorough article by William M. Furnish and Daryl D. Hallquist on Baker hammer doubles in The Double Gun Journal, Volume Nine, Issue 2, pages 63 to 77. Early on these guns had an underbolt and a dollshead rib extension. About March of 1892, they began bolting the gun with a wedge thru a slot in the rib extension. According to the graph in the DGJ article your gun was made about 1894. This model was made thru 1895, then for 1896, they had a diamond engraved on the trigger guard and were marked Model 1896. In 1897 BG&FCo. brought out there sidelock Model 1897 hammer double which was more of a hammer version of their hammerless doubles.


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 Post subject: Re: New Baker Side by Side Shotgun
PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 2:34 pm 
Field Grade

Joined: Sat Apr 12, 2008 7:59 pm
Posts: 24
I thank everyone for the info and any more that you might have.
What would be the best process to remove the rust?


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 Post subject: Re: New Baker Side by Side Shotgun
PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 5:15 pm 
Diamond Grade
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Joined: Sun Apr 30, 2006 11:16 pm
Posts: 1325
Location: Glendale, AZ
Please see http://www.lcsmith.org/faq/cleangun2.html and http://www.lcsmith.org/faq/surfacerust.html
and for more Baker infro http://www.picturetrail.com/sfx/album/view/17434920

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Put your trust in God; but mind to keep your powder dry! Oliver Cromwell


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 Post subject: Re: New Baker Side by Side Shotgun
PostPosted: Sun May 16, 2010 7:59 pm 
Utility Grade

Joined: Sun May 16, 2010 7:51 pm
Posts: 1
Researcher01 wrote:
These "New Baker" trigger-plate hammer doubles based on A.C. McFarland's Patent No. 370,966 granted Oct 4, 1887, were introduced by Syracuse Forging & Gun Co. in 1887. The factory in Syracuse burned in 1888 and the company moved to Batavia, NY. The company name was changed to the Baker Gun & Forging Co. in April 1890. There is a very thorough article by William M. Furnish and Daryl D. Hallquist on Baker hammer doubles in The Double Gun Journal, Volume Nine, Issue 2, pages 63 to 77. Early on these guns had an underbolt and a dollshead rib extension. About March of 1892, they began bolting the gun with a wedge thru a slot in the rib extension. According to the graph in the DGJ article your gun was made about 1894. This model was made thru 1895, then for 1896, they had a diamond engraved on the trigger guard and were marked Model 1896. In 1897 BG&FCo. brought out there sidelock Model 1897 hammer double which was more of a hammer version of their hammerless doubles.


This info has been hugely useful for me and a friend who are trying to identify an old shotgun he has. We know for sure it is a Baker Gun & Forging Company shotgun, it is not hammerless, and in fact seems to be very close to the one the original poster was asking about. The serial number on this particular gun is 19801. Neither of us knows too much about shotguns, so some of the terminology is way over our heads here...we would really like to know, as close as possible, what year this gun was made.

The only other info I can provide is that the sideplates are very plain, lacking in any engraving other than "New Baker" which is very faint on both sides. The barrel appears to be a Damascus twist, but I am not 100% sure what that term refers to, so I am not totally convinced this is the case.

Is there any chance anyone here can help us narrow this down? The gun is rough shape, so value is not so much the concern; this is a family heirloom, so the info is more for historical knowledge than anything.

Thanks,

Bob


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 Post subject: Re: New Baker Side by Side Shotgun
PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2010 1:06 am 
Crown Grade

Joined: Wed Dec 24, 2008 10:42 pm
Posts: 3639
The term damascus refers to the method of making shotguns barrels. Before there were fluid steel barrels or deep hole drilling machines barrels were made using this method. The maker started out with two or three strips of metal (one steel and one or two iron).
These were heated, and forged into one long thin narrow ribbon. This one strip was again heated and wrapped (much like a paper towel roller) around a mandrel the diameter of the desired gauge. The joints or edges of the roll were hammer welded into a solid tube. The tube was then honed out to the final diameter. This method created a pattern in the barrel which was considered very pretty (and it was). However the barrel was only strong enough for the ammunition in use which was black powder. It is not considered safe for any smokeless powder either early low pressure or more modern high pressure. Over the years rust and a lack of care and upkeep can cause the welds to deteriorate making the gun even more unsafe to fire. DON"T ATTEMPT TO SHOOT IT!!!


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 Post subject: Re: New Baker Side by Side Shotgun
PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2010 8:42 am 
Diamond Grade
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Joined: Sun Apr 30, 2006 11:16 pm
Posts: 1325
Location: Glendale, AZ
Damascus Twist is a One Iron Crolle-Twist laminate also called London or Baker "Best London Damascus Twist." Very similar pattern barrels are found on LC Smith Maker Baker, H grade Lefever, and Baker Gun & Forging guns

Image

This is a Baker with the ribband seen 'end-on' showing how the thin strips of iron and steel were layered (called piling or faggoting) to form the billet or lopin

Image

Another Baker

Image

For an explanation of damascus production, see
http://docs.google.com/Doc?id=dfg2hmx7_163vgh5prdf
http://docs.google.com/Doc?id=dfg2hmx7_180c83rvwg4

and regarding using damascus barrels, you (and Ned) might review
The Double Gun & Single Shot Journal "Finding Out For Myself" by Sherman Bell Vol 17: Issue 3 (Autumn 2006) p. 12, Vol 17: Issue 4 (Winter 2006) p. 28, and Vol 20: Issue 3 (Autumn 2009) p. 108
and http://www.lcsmith.org/faq/safetoshoot.html

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Put your trust in God; but mind to keep your powder dry! Oliver Cromwell


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