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 Post subject: Beretta DT10 v. Perazzi MX8.
PostPosted: Sun Aug 16, 2009 2:49 pm 
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Don't mean to start a war here so I left the German out of it and limited it to the Italians, the Beretta DT10 and the Perazzi MX8.

I had the chance to spend some time with both and while I have made up my own mind I would like to see what the board thinks of these two war horses and how they compare to each other.



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 Post subject: Re: Beretta DT10 v. Perazzi MX8.
PostPosted: Sun Aug 16, 2009 4:51 pm 
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I prefer the Perazzi.

If buying new and ordering the gun you can select the barrel lengths, rib style, barrel weight, chokes, mid ribs, bead type, trigger type, forend type, stock dimensions etc to suit your requirements. You don't have anything like those options with a DT10.

When ordering a Perazzi then, and comparing to a DT10, you can specify the gun with a stock to your own dimensions and barrels set up that it will handle like a DT10, faster than a DT10 or slower than a DT10 so to directly compare the fit and handling dynamics between the two is rather more complicated than it may appear at face value.

In terms of the actual design I like the Perazzi better, just me, and based on the new MX8's and MX2000's I have seen I believe the build quality is better than the DT10's as a rule. In my part of the world an MX8 or MX2000 is more expensive than a DT10 so it doesn't seem unreasonable to expect that the fit, finish etc might be a little better, you are paying more so you should get more and I believe you do.

If buying used or off the shelf buy the one that best suits you in terms of fit and balance or the one you shoot the best if you can shoot both.

The down side with the Perazzi options is that it means that looking at and shooting one Perazzi might not give you much idea about what some other seemingly similar Perazzi may be like. Two 32" O/U "Sporters" for example could be quite different guns depending on how they were specified and shooting one might not tell you much about the other. If one had 1500 gram fixed choked barrels and the other had 1700 gram choke tubed barrel they will be quite different handling. Stock dimensions on one gun might suit you down to the ground while another might be completely wrong. You might like the pistol grip on gun A while gun B might be very different (you can specify pistol grip dimensions). Gun A might have a flat tapered rib with only an orange front bead while gun B could have a parallel ramped rib with a white front bead and a mid bead. Etc etc etc ............

Bryce


Last edited by Bryce. on Sun Aug 16, 2009 6:23 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Beretta DT10 v. Perazzi MX8.
PostPosted: Sun Aug 16, 2009 4:58 pm 
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Perazzi without a doubt for me. You have a zillion ways to buy a Perazzi, not so with a DT 10, the Perazzi also has not been incumbered with some of the problems associated with the DT 10

RTA48


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 Post subject: Re: Beretta DT10 v. Perazzi MX8.
PostPosted: Sun Aug 16, 2009 5:02 pm 
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I have shot both and own both. If you are talking about the plain grade DT10 vs plain grade MX8, I don't see any positives about the MX8 to warrant spending the extra $$$ over the lower cost DT10. Both have similar fit and finish, neither one stands out as having a better fit and finish. Both, to me, swing and handle the same. Neither one stood out as having better handling over the other.


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 Post subject: Re: Beretta DT10 v. Perazzi MX8.
PostPosted: Sun Aug 16, 2009 6:12 pm 
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Thats a tough question. I think it's going to come down to what you like best.

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 Post subject: Re: Beretta DT10 v. Perazzi MX8.
PostPosted: Sun Aug 16, 2009 7:45 pm 
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rta48 wrote:
Perazzi without a doubt for me. You have a zillion ways to buy a Perazzi, not so with a DT 10, the Perazzi also has not been incumbered with some of the problems associated with the DT 10

RTA48


I'm learning here, so:

-Where and how does the customer try out the ways of the Perazzi since the Italians don't believe in the English try-gun method?

-What are the DT10 problems?

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 Post subject: Re: Beretta DT10 v. Perazzi MX8.
PostPosted: Sun Aug 16, 2009 8:00 pm 
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Forgetting cost for a moment, I think these guns are similar. If you are buying new, the options available from Perazzi are very nice. But, those options also make them two completely different guns.

If you know what you want, the Perazzi seems to be the right choice. However, if you're like most of us and not completely sure about all the dimensions and dynamics of a gun, the Beretta is a known quantity. I like my DT10 so much that if offered a custom gun I would order it with the DT10 dimensions. Crazy huh?

So, Scala, what was your choice and why?

rta48,
What are these 'problems' the DT10 suffers from? I haven't run into any trouble with mine.

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 Post subject: Re: Beretta DT10 v. Perazzi MX8.
PostPosted: Sun Aug 16, 2009 8:28 pm 
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I have DT10L And have not had any problems. I like my DT10 and it seems to be a great gun. As far as the Perazzi I never had owned one but I am sure they are great guns.

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 Post subject: Re: Beretta DT10 v. Perazzi MX8.
PostPosted: Sun Aug 16, 2009 8:55 pm 
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Perazzi is my vote as well and is one of the guns in my safe. There's also an ASE 90 but no DT-10.

Bryce pretty well stated all the reasons. That's one of the better pro-Perazzi posts.


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 Post subject: Re: Beretta DT10 v. Perazzi MX8.
PostPosted: Mon Aug 17, 2009 8:24 am 
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Location: iceland
+1 for MX8. IMHO the Perazzi is better made than the DT10 :!:
And the options you have with a Perazzi are almost endless,which is
great,but can also be a problem because we all know what we want
but very few of us know what we really need :!: :lol:
But if you know what you want and more importantly what you need
then Perazzi will make the perfect gun for you.

Mannsi.


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 Post subject: Re: Beretta DT10 v. Perazzi MX8.
PostPosted: Mon Aug 17, 2009 9:35 am 
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Rastoff wrote:
So, Scala, what was your choice and why?



My son is a bunker shooter and two years ago while in port in Napoli -he is with the US Navy- visited Perazzi in Brescia and went through the "Italian way" of measuring one up for fit. He bought two guns which I've shot and like.

A few weeks ago I had the opportunity to get close to a DT10 that impressed me quite a bit and got me started thinking and browsing for Perazzi and Beretta options. This how I came across a DT10 32" Trap at Joel Etchen's that I liked the look of and which I was shooting the next day thanks to the miracle of overnight delivery.

The gun weighs 9.2 lbs but becomes weightless when I mount it and shoot it. Using 7/8 oz. Kemen internationals it has no perceptible recoil and I am recoil sensitive due to a bad shoulder. A much better shooter than myself shot SC with it, couldn't miss and also commented on the light recoil.

My son will be shooting it this weekend and I'm looking forward to his comments.

As for me I will be going through many flats of Kemens before I even think about another gun. It may be a Perazzi next time but the US Dollar will have to get back to 1:1 with the Euro before I go eat lunch in Brescia.

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 Post subject: Re: Beretta DT10 v. Perazzi MX8.
PostPosted: Mon Aug 17, 2009 9:54 am 
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Scala; good question :?: I do not know who the Florida P-Gun guys are. Joe Rankin is over in Mississippi and would be a good source for P-Guns.

The post by Bryce is very informative and touches on most of the important stuff. It is my opinion that a Perazzi is best suited for a shooter that has spent enough time shooting to have a SOLID idea in what he/she wants and expects from a shotgun. Then that shooter can order a Perazzi to fit their needs.

Now before I start on the DT 10 - guys don't go hating on me just because I am reporting what I have seen and experienced. My shooting partner shot a DT10 at a very high level :wink: and he loved the gun, BUT, he had constant problems with the gun opening. He had the top lever spring changed several times, he had Cole guns rebuild the cross-bolt with a massive SO5 cross-bolt and it still would open from time to time. This was not a high round count gun. Another shooting friend Craig Parker, had the EXACT same experience and has either changed guns or is in the process.

OK, so I no that all guns can and do have troubles and there are many DT10 shooters that have not had this experience! It is just MY opinion that a gun at this price point should not have this type of problem. The Beretta ASE guns which the DT10 replaced were one of the finest shotguns that I have ever handled and I have never heard of this type of problem with them.

For me, its all about price point and when you step into the $5K + range then I start looking at reliability, RE-SALE value and finally just how much do I like the guns.

FYI, I own 2 Perazzi MX8's - one of them has the most beautiful piece of wood that I have ever seen on a shotgun - both of them are safe queens :roll: When I shoot seriously I have the German Iron Maiden in my hands :wink:

RTA48


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 Post subject: Re: Beretta DT10 v. Perazzi MX8.
PostPosted: Mon Aug 17, 2009 11:14 am 
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Just to follow up on what RTA48 states, I too have owned a DT10. And I loved the way the gun fit and handled.
With the crossbolt lock up I thought it would be very long wearing. It wasn't, as the lever "wore to center" faster than any gun I've ever owned. Mine also had the trigger problem of doubling. I had my DT10 repaired several times and the problem returned after 20K rounds. For a gun in this price and "quality" range I was disappointed in my DT10. As I've stated on these boards beforeI also struggled with a K80 for several years. ( I never did adjust to the weight of the K80.Mine had the new lighter barrels and Ti choke tubes. I loved the K80 triggers and recoil feel, but ulitmately, I never could shot it as well as the Italian guns I had become use to!)

All that said I've been asking every guy with a DT10 I run across at every shoot how they like it, and have they had any issues. The newer built DT10's are suppose to be improved for those past issues. I have not run across anyone that has an issue with newer DT10s. And the reason I have been asking is I am considering buying another!(even with all the issues I had in the past with mine.)
I would like to think they are better now.

Having said how much I did like the DT10 there is still one thing to consider. The Boss action of the Perazzi is a strong lock up but also slimmer on top. ( yes the action itself is a little thicker, but when viewed from the Gun Butt the P gun does not have the lump of the greener crossbolt of the DT10. ) That may be something to consider as well.

I should add the other issue with both a DT10 and Perazzi is the leaf springs. I would buy the coil spring option on the P gun, while that option is not available on the DT10!


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 Post subject: Re: Beretta DT10 v. Perazzi MX8.
PostPosted: Mon Aug 17, 2009 12:20 pm 
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rta48 wrote:
FYI, I own 2 Perazzi MX8's - one of them has the most beautiful piece of wood that I have ever seen on a shotgun

RTA48

Alright, first of all you can't drop a statement like that without pics! Come on, don't leave us in the lurch, we want to see that wood!

I had heard of the opening on shooting problem before. I'm curious if you have a date of manufacture on that gun? Sometimes new guns have issues that are quickly fixed after initial introduction. As I understand it, the DT10 was introduced in 2000. I have a 2004 edition and haven't experienced any trouble. Of course I only have about 800 rounds through mine so, I can't comment on longevity.

rta48 wrote:
For me, its all about price point and when you step into the $5K + range then I start looking at reliability,...

I find this quote interesting. I couldn't agree more. Once you start to reach this level of expense, you should expect a higher level of reliability. Yet, Perazzi has a reputation of breaking leaf springs. So, you would have to say that it has its own issues as well.

It's important to note here that I don't personally ascribe to the 'broken spring' issue. I mark it down as an overblown legend. I have to log the DT10 opening in the same category. I know several Perazzi shooters and only know of one of them that has ever replaced a broken spring. That spring was replaced after >50,000 registered targets. That means he had >100,000 rounds through it when the spring broke. I have yet to meet anyone personally that had an issue with a DT10.

Sometimes I think these 'problems' get out of hand. Every gas station I go to has a sticker saying that I should turn off my cell phone due to the hazard of ignition. There has never been even one verified incident of a cell phone igniting gasoline. It's more hazardous to get in and out of your car while fueling. Yes, springs break, parts wear out and products have deficiencies. I just don't think they are at a level to where I'm ready to tell someone not to buy a particular product. Now, if you were to ask me about a Silver Reserve....

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 Post subject: Re: Beretta DT10 v. Perazzi MX8.
PostPosted: Mon Aug 17, 2009 3:50 pm 
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Rastoff wrote:
rta48 wrote:
FYI, I own 2 Perazzi MX8's - one of them has the most beautiful piece of wood that I have ever seen on a shotgun

RTA48

Alright, first of all you can't drop a statement like that without pics! Come on, don't leave us in the lurch, we want to see that wood!



Second that +1.

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 Post subject: Re: Beretta DT10 v. Perazzi MX8.
PostPosted: Mon Aug 17, 2009 4:30 pm 
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Rastoff,

In my mind the Perazzi broken spring thing is a very different issue to the DT10 "unwanted opening" thing. Of course I am a little biased .......

Seems to me that it is understood that a spring can break, any spring, how long is a matter of use and luck.

In fact I believe that the "luck" part is in fact how well the individual spring is finished in the area that it folds back on itself, the inner corners. A gunsmith friend once told me that with a leaf spring an unfortunately placed file mark or such can create an area of stress concentration that can result in premature breakage. I know that a sharp corner in something will generate stresses and cracks whereas a rounded corner will distribute the stresses and avoid cracks or breakage. A well finished spring might last longer than one that has a little file mark or other imperfection on the inner fold which allows stresses to build leading to failure ?????? Perhaps if we hand polished that area the spring might last a lot longer ?????

Anyway ..... a leaf spring breakage at some stage down the track seems quite different to a gun that routinely or even intermittently opens upon firing. To my mind the spring is a "foible" or "idiosyncrasy" of the design used, a trade off of one somewhat undesirable outcome to achieve a more important benefit. The benefit being fast and easy easy maintenance not needing a gunsmith and (apparently) better trigger pulls.

The self opening DT10 thing is simply a shortcoming due to either design, materials or build quality weakness with no redeeming features as a side benefit. Granted they don't all do it but I'd be pretty annoyed if I owned one that did but a broken spring in my Perazzi would not concern me in the slightest.

Bryce


Yeah RTA - show is that MX8 wood.


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 Post subject: Re: Beretta DT10 v. Perazzi MX8.
PostPosted: Mon Aug 17, 2009 4:39 pm 
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if you need custom stock dimensions to begin with, you will end up getting a customized stock anyway, DT10 or MX8, so where does the MX8 have an edge on being able to get a stock "customized"? I have to have my dress shirts brought to my tailor to have him take in the sides, in order for the shirts to fit me properly. There is no difference, other than costs, if I were to get a custom dress shirt made from scratch to my body type. Either way, I have to get my shirts tailored. So having a MX8 stock customized to you is nothing substantial to brag about as an attribute over the DT10.


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 Post subject: Re: Beretta DT10 v. Perazzi MX8.
PostPosted: Mon Aug 17, 2009 4:51 pm 
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Bryce. wrote:
The self opening DT10 thing is simply a shortcoming due to either design, materials or build quality weakness with no redeeming features as a side benefit.



Nice reading, after which I would be ready to turn around and sell my newly acquired DT10 had I not heard more vitriol addressed toward the German gun by one fan fraction or another.

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 Post subject: Re: Beretta DT10 v. Perazzi MX8.
PostPosted: Mon Aug 17, 2009 4:58 pm 
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Sernv99,

You can order the gun straight from the factory with any stock dimensions that you want. You can specify the following dimensions or features:

Drop at comb
Drop at heel
Drop at Monte Carlo if applicable
Length of pull
Pitch
Cast at comb
Cast at heel
Cast at toe
Length to start of comb
Length of pistol grip
Diameter of pistol grip
Height of pistol grip
Pad thickness
Pad type
Palm swell
Wood finish
Extra thick comb
Adjustable comb
Wood or rubber adjustable comb
Selection of about 5 forend styles.

So with enough knowledge to order the Perazzi correctly you can have a custom stock at no extra cost and no need for any messing around after you receive the gun.

I believe with a DT10 you might be lucky enough to pick between a grand total of TWO factory stock drop height options.


Using your dress shirts as an example - the Perazzi is like a dress shirt made just for you at no additional charge over the ticket price while the DT10 is the off the shelf shirt that needs to be altered by your tailor to make it fit you properly.

Bryce


Last edited by Bryce. on Mon Aug 17, 2009 5:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Beretta DT10 v. Perazzi MX8.
PostPosted: Mon Aug 17, 2009 5:05 pm 
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Scala wrote:
Bryce. wrote:
The self opening DT10 thing is simply a shortcoming due to either design, materials or build quality weakness with no redeeming features as a side benefit.



Nice reading, after which I would be ready to turn around and sell my newly acquired DT10 had I not heard more vitriol addressed toward the German gun by one fan fraction or another.


I spoke to Dan Lokker in person, early last month. He is Giacomo's main man, the P gun east cost guy to go to for service, sales, and parts. He told me he was soldering on a bunch of loose ribs on Perazzis at the US Open. He also told me I had to thumb the action closed rather than snap it closed like every other gun I have done to or else I would be seeing him every year for an annual service to fix. I was like WTF!!! So, you may read bad things about the DT10 but there are also bad things with the Perazzi. Go ask Dan and he will tell you the same thing I just typed here.

you will do fine with the DT10. It is not crap compared to Perazzi. Each gun has faults. Just do more searching on here and on other boards and you will see both good and bad stories on both guns.




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