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 Post subject: Ponsness Warren 375C: Need help with final crimp (photos)
PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2009 11:38 pm 
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Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2009 11:26 pm
Posts: 5
Hi everybody-

This is my first post on Shotgunworld. I had a look around and it seems like a pretty friendly and knowlegable group here.

I was hoping you can help with a new-to-me P&W 375C I picked up used. I have been loading for shotgun, rifle, and pistol for over 15 years, but this one has me stumped.

I need some assistance adjusting the crimp stage of my 2 3/4" 12 ga. loads on a P&W 375C. I think some pictures will help illustrate my troubles.

I tried following the instructions in the manual and made some progress in adjusting the final crimp (going from left to right), but I am afraid they still have a large hole in the center that can leak shot. Also, the finished shells are tall. (red factory AA round for comparison)

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Close up of reload on left and a factory round for comparison on the right.
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The shells are a little proud and sticking out of the top of the seater more than I would like. From what I understand, they are suppose to be flush with the top and you are suppose to be able to place a straight edge on top of the die and not have it touch the shell. This is definitely not the case and I can't seem to figure out how to get it below the rim despite many different adjustments.
Again for comparison, I pressed a loaded factory AA round into the die (red shell). You clearly see that it is significantly lower than my attempts. I cannot seem to get the crimp below the rim of the sizing die. I measured the O.A.L. of the loaded rounds. The factory round is 0.030" to 0.045" shorter than my better looking crimp attempts.

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I know this load combination works and can produce great looking shells because I have used it for years with a Hornady/Pacific 366 Auto (flooded and ruined).

I appreciate any help you can give me.

Thanks!

Screenshot from instruction manual:
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 Post subject: Re: Ponsness Warren 375C: Need help with final crimp (photos)
PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 12:36 am 
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Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2008 4:41 am
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With the longer sizer die you have shown in your photo with a crimped shell, your machine has the older non taper crimping tool set.

The short version, since you have a older non taper crimping tool set in the machine, you are going to run into problems with the HS AA hulls center holes until you either buy a taper crimp tool set, or mod your tool set into a taper crimping tool set. CF and even STS hulls will not have this problem with the older non-taper crimping tool set that you currently have, just the new HS hulls. As for now, you can lower the pre-crimper down far enough without it crashing into the top of the sizer die, plus you are missing the crimper spring tension adjustment nut as well to add tapering to close the crimp hole as well.

Also, the manual you have listed is for a taper crimping tool set (note the lower height of the sizer die against the shell crimp section in the manual, and the fact that there is nuts on the crimper that you don't have on your crimper).

If you just must load the AA HS hulls, then you will need to update the machines tool set to taper crimping to close the crimp center hole.

http://reloaders.com/zen-cart/index.php ... ducts_id=9


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 Post subject: Re: Ponsness Warren 375C: Need help with final crimp (photos)
PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 9:25 am 
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Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2009 11:26 pm
Posts: 5
Dano523 wrote:
With the longer sizer die you have shown in your photo with a crimped shell, your machine has the older non taper crimping tool set.

... or mod your tool set into a taper crimping tool set.

I have TWO of the same 12 ga. sizing dies that came with the machine. I am more than willing to try and modify one. I can see already that having a shorter sizing die would allow the pre-crimp stage to close the shell more. That alone would likely solve some of the issue. Is there any way you could measure the "C" style die and give me the overall length that I should end up with? I can't thank you enough.

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...plus you are missing the crimper spring tension adjustment nut as well to add tapering to close the crimp hole as well.

Are you referring to the nut on top of the spring assembly? The seating stem I have uses two nuts. One is a jam nut for fixing the post to the tool head; the other provides tension on the spring assembly. Please see pics below.

http://reloaders.com/zen-cart/index.php ... ducts_id=9

Damn, those aren't cheap. But more importantly, they won't get here before this weekend's hunt. This is what I get for procrastinating. Ha!


====================
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[I know I need to hit this thing with a little steel wool and clean up some of the rust. I bought it this way.]

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 Post subject: Re: Ponsness Warren 375C: Need help with final crimp (photos)
PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 10:47 am 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Thu Jul 06, 2006 2:18 pm
Posts: 178
Location: Gold Bar, Wa.
Kenati,

From the photos it looks like

1. I think you have the taper crimp die installed on your machine, but best to talk to PW tech support to make sure
as I'm no expert and don't have much experience with older 375s. But it looks just like mine from what I can tell.

2. The "shell carrier/sizer die" shown in the caliper measures the same as my sizer for 3 inch shells :shock: .
My sizer for 2 3/4 shells measures 2.063 :D Gotta lathe handy?

3. The crimp starter is the older type and some people think its better than the newer one. Especially if you
are loading new hulls. YMMV

Roi

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 Post subject: Re: Ponsness Warren 375C: Need help with final crimp (photos)
PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 11:10 am 
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Joined: Tue Sep 20, 2005 1:28 pm
Posts: 4399
Location: Missoula, MT
Yup, I think he has the wrong shell carrier - especially for the HS hull. Maybe call PW and see if they can overnight you the correct shell carrier as you don't need the entire taper crimp set.

John

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 Post subject: Re: Ponsness Warren 375C: Need help with final crimp (photos)
PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 3:32 pm 
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Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2008 4:41 am
Posts: 4694
C sizer is around 2.142"+/-.003.

The crimper may work both ways with the adjustment nut, but not sure of the crimper cup that is on it, and if it will crimp correctly with the top of the shell exposed out of the C sizer (C crimper cup is slightly different than the B crimper cups).

Your knock out rod will need to be changed to the spring loaded cup design since with a fixed solid post. when the solid knock-out goes to push the loaded round out of the sizer, it's going to peen the top of the exposed hull outwards and cause crimp problems (also may be very hard to knock the shell out of the carrier as well).

Bottom line here, either use different hulls than the AA HS to load on the press, or you will need to upgrade the machine tool set to a C model to do so (either buy the tool set upgrade parts at $69.95 plus shipping, or if you have a lathe, start making the new needed parts to upgrade the tool set into a C).

C model with lower sizer, and spring loaded knock out station.
http://reloaders.com/zen-cart/images/Gduo_matic.jpg

As for this weekend hunt, break out some painters masking tape, rip small pieces and tape the holes closed in now crimped shells. If you reload long enough, you learn this trick to get the last firing out of hulls that should have not been reloaded in the first place (crimp no longer holding in the pellets, and you want to shoot them the last time instead of having to tear them down).


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 Post subject: Re: Ponsness Warren 375C: Need help with final crimp (photos)
PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 6:26 pm 
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Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2009 11:26 pm
Posts: 5
Thanks, fellas. I really appreciate all of your input. You guys are right in that it is the older style "B" press, but I'm no sure about the final crimp station, as it seems to be the "C" style.

At any rate, I spoke with a tech, Tawnia, at P&W who was very knowledgeable and confirmed that I would need to buy the upgraded "C" kit with taper crimp to solve this issue.

I asked about shortening the sizing die and she said I would like still have some problems with the final crimp as it was not designed to be used with a shorter sizing die. Whatever. I am going to give it a shot because I am hard headed. She did say that the shorter die would give me a better pre-crimp though, so that might help some.

If it doesn't work, I am going to buy the taper crimp parts and just set it up for loading steel/bismuth. I already miss the 366 Auto, although I think the P&W is a better built machine. I can see an 800+ in my future. Or would you guys recommend a Platinum 2000?

At any rate, thanks again for your help. I'll post and let you know how the shortened die works.


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 Post subject: Re: Ponsness Warren 375C: Need help with final crimp (photos)
PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 7:55 pm 
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Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2008 4:41 am
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If you just must try it, shorten the sizer just enough that a reloaded HS hull is flush with the top of it when crimped correctly (use a factory shell to the get the needed cut dimensions and don't go the full 2.143" cut length).

Since you have two sizers, the one left unmolested can be used for other hulls that do not have the HS problem if the concept pans out.

As stated, you do not want the hull to be exposed above the top of the carrier either after final crimp, or when the hull gets knocked out of the sizer by the post. The knock out post will cause a peening/ top exposed mushroom problem, and your crimper cup does not have the longer inner straight section to retain the outside of the exposed hull to control the top of the hull edge during crimping (such as in the case of the C tool set).

Really, what you are trying to achieve is to be able to lower the pre-crimp down the added needed amount to get the center hole closed, without crashing into the top of the sizer die. With the looks of the factory shell in the sizer (distance of it to the top of the carrier, you may be able to pull off the mod without problems for the HS hulls.

Also, track the amount that you cut off, since it it works, Knowing this dimension could be passed on to would save other people having the same problem from having to upgrade the tool sets for the HS hulls as well.


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 Post subject: Re: Ponsness Warren 375C: Need help with final crimp (photos)
PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 9:24 pm 
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Posts: 556
Location: Missouri
I think when you get that 375 dialed in you will have all the loader you need for hunting loads.

Now if you're going to shoot 500 rounds per week at targets then Yea I'd look at a progressive.

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 Post subject: Re: Ponsness Warren 375C: Need help with final crimp (photos)
PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 9:38 pm 
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Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2009 11:26 pm
Posts: 5
BINGO!! :D

I made a jig and carefully ground the sizing die down using the fine stone on a bench grinder. I beveled the top edge to mimic the factory finish. The overall length of the modified sizing die was 2.255".

I got about 100 nearly perfect loads ready for this weekend's hunt and the rest of the season. Oh, and I didn't have to spend the $70 plus shipping.

Thanks everyone for your help!

-Kenati

P.S. I still miss my progressive though. :( I'm sure the question about the P&W "800+ vs. 2000" has been asked a thousand times before, so I'll do an archive search to gather opinions. I paid about half of what the 366 Auto is selling for today and I refuse to pay what Hornady is asking for a machine that is inferior to P&W's quality.

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 Post subject: Re: Ponsness Warren 375C: Need help with final crimp (photos)
PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 10:48 pm 
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Joined: Tue Sep 20, 2005 1:28 pm
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Location: Missoula, MT
Great job = shells looking good

I always drip a couple of drops of candle wax over suspect holes in the crimp.

john

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 Post subject: Re: Ponsness Warren 375C: Need help with final crimp (photos)
PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2009 1:50 am 
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Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2008 4:41 am
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Your close to being done, but take a look at your finished hulls.

The ones that had the crimp fold line coming all the way up over the top edge of the end of the hull tells me that you have the pre-crimper set just a tad too low. You want the end of the fold line to stop just before the inside top of the hull like on the factory rounds. It's not a big deal right now, but with the fold lines set to the top of the hull, it makes a weak spot for the hulls to wear out faster (start cracking).

Also, adding a touch more spring pressure on the crimper (bottom nut on top of the spring washer a tad more down on the shaft against the spring) should close up the holes as well with the new sizer height. The cup spring pressure sets the amount downward that the pedestals fold in be before the main section of the inner ram rod make the final plunging crimp. If you add too much spring cup pressure with the set up now, then the crimp folds should start to swirl (like the center'ish rounds in your finished ammo photo, and if you have to go with a choice, go with the slight swirl over the open center hole).

On the 800 plus verses the 2000 plus, pretty much the same machine, but the 800 has the old style star indexing, while the 2000 has the additional center shaft indexing instead. As for which one you want, the 800 plus (due to the star indexing just being so much better that the additional center shaft indexing). Plus, since you don't have the center shaft like on the 2000, pulling the tool head for what every reason is a breeze on the 800 machines.


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 Post subject: Re: Ponsness Warren 375C: Need help with final crimp (photos)
PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2009 6:46 am 
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Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2009 11:26 pm
Posts: 5
Thank you for the very helpful tips and suggestions. I figured it could use a little more adjusting, but I was afraid to mess up a good thing. :lol:

I really appreciate everyone's input. Thanks again!


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 Post subject: Re: Ponsness Warren 375C: Need help with final crimp (photo
PostPosted: Sat May 25, 2013 8:47 am 
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Joined: Sat May 18, 2013 10:57 am
Posts: 1
Dano523 wrote:
C sizer is around 2.142"+/-.003.
Bottom line here, either use different hulls than the AA HS to load on the press, or you will need to upgrade the machine tool set to a C model to do so (either buy the tool set upgrade parts at $69.95 plus shipping, or if you have a lathe, start making the new needed parts to upgrade the tool set into a C).

C model with lower sizer, and spring loaded knock out station.
http://reloaders.com/zen-cart/images/Gduo_matic.jpg



I've loaded a lot of metallic ammo but I'm new to shotgun reloading and new to this forum so would appreciate any help. I recently acquired a Ponsness Warren 375. I see a lot of discussion concerning the difference between the crimp of the 375 and the 375C. The post above seems to indicate the parts for the taper crimp can be made with a lathe. Well I have the lathe and the skills to operate it. Are there drawings or instructions somewhere on how to make the required parts? Seems this post is dated and many of the links are broken.


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