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 Post subject: What is an INERTIA POWERED Shotgun?
PostPosted: Sat Sep 12, 2009 6:39 pm 
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What is an INERTIA POWERED Shotgun?

I know all about it of course, but could someone provide a link that will explain this technical subject for my (ahem!) friend?

I can't stand ingernt people. It is perfectly clear to me, but if you have a link to some technical explanation, my friend would probably appreciate it.

:cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry:



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 Post subject: Re: What is an INERTIA POWERED Shotgun?
PostPosted: Sat Sep 12, 2009 6:42 pm 
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from wikipedia recoil operated shotgun" section 2.3

nertia operation

The newest design in recoil operated firearms is the inertia operated system. In a reversal of the other designs, the inertia system uses nearly the entire firearm as the recoiling component, with only the bolt remaining stationary during firing. Because of this, the inertia system is only applied to heavily recoiling firearms, particularly shotguns. Currently the only inertia operated firearms are either made by Benelli, or use a design licensed from Benelli, such as Franchi.[1] In the Benelli implementation, a two part, rotating locking bolt, similar to that in many gas-operated firearms, is used as basis of the action.

Before firing, the bolt body is separated from the locked bolt head by a stiff spring. As the shotgun recoils after firing, inertia causes the bolt body to remain stationary while the recoiling gun and locked bolt head move rearward. This movement compresses the spring between the bolt head and bolt body, storing the energy required to cycle the action. Since the spring can only be compressed a certain amount, this limits the amount of force the spring can absorb, and provides an inherent level of self-regulation to the action, allowing a wide range of shotshells to be used, from standard to magnum loads, as long as they provide the minimum recoil level to compress the spring. Note that the shotgun must be free to recoil for this to work--the compressibility of the shooter's body is sufficient to allow this movement, but firing the shotgun from a secure position in a rest or with the stock against the ground will not allow it to recoil sufficiently to operate the mechanism.
Block diagram of inertia operation cycle.

As the recoil spring returns to its uncompressed state, it pushes the bolt body backward with sufficient force to cycle the action. The bolt body unlocks and retracts the bolt head, extracts and ejects the cartridge, cocks the hammer, and compresses the return spring. Once the bolt reaches the end of its travel, the return spring provides the force to chamber the next round from the magazine, and lock the bolt closed.

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 Post subject: Re: What is an INERTIA POWERED Shotgun?
PostPosted: Sat Sep 12, 2009 9:12 pm 
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The bolt travels backward with the gun because if you try to push the bolt forward it doesn't go forward but under the force of recoil the bolt compress a spring in the rotary bolt head that is stiff and short. As the gun slows down the compressed spring pushes the bolt back and just the fact that the bolt doesn't want to slow down throws the bolt back and the return spring returns the bolt forwards.
http://www.benelliusa.com/innovations/i ... system.php

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 Post subject: Re: What is an INERTIA POWERED Shotgun?
PostPosted: Sat Sep 12, 2009 9:53 pm 
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The discussion of inertia automatics is accurate. If you're talking about the new Winchester "inertia powered" pump gun, its more hype than fact. Apparantly they are trying to claim that the bolt uses the recoil to assist in driving the bolt back when you pump it. All pumps do that to some extent or another. A pump gun is a pump gun. Don't swallow the hype.

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 Post subject: Re: What is an INERTIA POWERED Shotgun?
PostPosted: Sat Sep 12, 2009 11:49 pm 
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sneem wrote:
The discussion of inertia automatics is accurate. If you're talking about the new Winchester "inertia powered" pump gun, its more hype than fact. Apparantly they are trying to claim that the bolt uses the recoil to assist in driving the bolt back when you pump it. All pumps do that to some extent or another. A pump gun is a pump gun. Don't swallow the hype.

+1 it uses the recoil to unlock the bolt if I am correct and all pumps unlock after they fire.

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 Post subject: Re: What is an INERTIA POWERED Shotgun?
PostPosted: Sun Sep 13, 2009 12:04 am 
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Calisto wrote:

What is an INERTIA POWERED Shotgun?




"Inertia-powered" is an open question, one that must go beyond physics. It is actually an unfortunate term applied to actions. As most know, inertia is resistance to change in motion of a body via Newton built upon Galileo.

Taken literally, about the only way there is to take basic physics-- an inertia action can't work. It begins at rest, wants to stay there, so following "inertia" it doesn't want to move at all. :roll: A shotgun whose action has none really isn't at all a good thing.

Inertia shotguns must be more reliable than delayed blow-back actions, though, or be worth more money, sell better, or something. Maybe all of the above? Delayed blowback actions or retarded blowback actions have been around since the late 1800s, as in Mannlicher retarded blowback rifle of 1893.

Nobody really wants to own a retarded shotgun, of course. I guess I can't blame them. Retarded-powered shotguns don't sound like a bright idea.

In practice, the "inertia" part of a Benelli refers to the split bolt, specifically the "bolt body" that doesn't want to go anywhere, so it compresses a spring due to its preference of not moving. Not wanting to move is Benelli's take on inertia.

With the SXP, formerly the "Speed Pump," formerly the 1300, formerly the 1200, the idea is the opposite. It presumes the breechblock is already moving, so the resistance to change in motion of this "body" is to keep moving, initiating the ejection cycle of the slide action.

Had John Browning not been so busy inventing guns, and spent a little more time on creative marketing, he would have realized that his A-5 was not just a recoil action. It was a triplex recoil dual inertia action, with three times the physics involved and naturally three times the hyperbole. The A-5's receiver body at rest, using inertia wants to stay at rest. At the same time, the A-5's barrel and breechblock want to keep on moving, using the continued movement as the second form of resistance to change in motion.

To insure that J.M.B. had not inadvertently perfected the perpetual motion device, he used both bronze friction pieces and a spring to control and retard the barrel-breechblock movement. Not only that, Browning not only had the triplex recoil dual inertia action, he also employed dual kinetic energy storage devices, one in the forearm and one in the buttstock. Okay, some people might call them "springs" but that just gets in the way of esoteric marketing and new branches of physics.

Some days, I long for the simplicity of the Browning dual kinetic energy storage equipped triplex dual inertia action with variable compression gripper bronze shock absorber technology Automatic-Five. Doesn't anyone else miss the truly simpler days?

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 Post subject: Re: What is an INERTIA POWERED Shotgun?
PostPosted: Sun Sep 13, 2009 1:46 pm 
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I don't really think you can call any gun "Inertia Powered"? Since it is a result of an action and not an action itself. A sling shot could be called inertia powered the way it has been described even though the power actually comes from the arm pulling the "dual kinetic energy storage devices" back and cocking the weapon. At least with a sling shot inertia is actually what propels the shot and not burned powder in a confined area :roll:
I think I'll go try to fit an "Inertia Reducer" on my Human Operated shotguns rear most portion of it's locating handle. Or some such drivel.


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 Post subject: Re: What is an INERTIA POWERED Shotgun?
PostPosted: Sun Sep 13, 2009 2:31 pm 
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Janitor= "Custodial Engineer". Makes for better conversation. Sounds better but the job is still janitor.

Same with Inertia Driven. It sounds better for advertising and charging more for the product.

I don't know what John Browning would have called it. It is hard to improve on perfection. The Browning long recoil action, though over 100 years old, is still my favorite action. Give me a Franchi AL-48 and I'm happy. I'm sure that you guys that own Benellis are happy with your guns. I have a couple of Stoeger 2000s that have been good for my sons to use. They are reliable.

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 Post subject: Re: What is an INERTIA POWERED Shotgun?
PostPosted: Sun Sep 13, 2009 5:59 pm 
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Okay. So besides the fact that I nearly fall over laughing, reading Randy Wakeman's posts.....


See if I understand the physics correcketly. The general idea is that some of the kinetic energy is converted into potential energy, by putting some recoil into a spring.

Is that right?

Although, I admit, I don't see how any action of a bolt on a shotgun, that is waiting for me to pump the forend, can possibly do that while it is waiting for the operator to operate the forend. The spring would have a very slow return, waiting to give the operator some kind of "assist" in the pumping?

Just goes to show you though, Randy Wakeman can't draw pitchers er nuthin.

/
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In all seriousness though, there's a fact here about marketing by any manufacturer. If they cannot explain it in plain terms to sell me on it, I'll decide, every time, to just get a simpler shotgun. You know, the kind that depends upon Operator Error.

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 Post subject: Re: What is an INERTIA POWERED Shotgun?
PostPosted: Mon Sep 14, 2009 2:47 am 
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Quote:
Retarded-powered shotguns don't sound like a good idea.........


My 870 is retard powered. :D

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 Post subject: Re: What is an INERTIA POWERED Shotgun?
PostPosted: Mon Sep 14, 2009 3:59 am 
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My 870 is retard powered. Mine also it does not take a smart person to operate it..


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 Post subject: Re: What is an INERTIA POWERED Shotgun?
PostPosted: Mon Sep 14, 2009 7:37 am 
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>>Some days, I long for the simplicity of the Browning dual kinetic energy storage equipped triplex dual inertia action with variable compression gripper bronze shock absorber technology Automatic-Five. Doesn't anyone else miss the truly simpler days?<<

Nope, not here. I wouldn't trade my Benellis to go back to an A5 in a million years. The Benelli is the utmost in simplicity and reliability in my book. :)


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 Post subject: Re: What is an INERTIA POWERED Shotgun?
PostPosted: Mon Sep 14, 2009 9:41 am 
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Quote:
Nope, not here. I wouldn't trade my Benellis to go back to an A5 in a million years. The Benelli is the utmost in simplicity and reliability in my book. ---Rut



I couldn't tell a lot difference between my first gun, a Mossberg 500 and the Benelli Nova. Sure, the Benelli may be smoother, and of simpler construction, and some other features. But as far as operations go, I have to Pump both of them myself.

Perhaps if someone was with me, and demonstrating both guns together to get me to see something, I might notice strong differences. But generally, that Mossberg 500 feels good in my hands and operates smoothly.

I don't claim to know the difference between Come! and Go Sic'Em! nor do I have the technical expertise to make Ice Cubes, of course, but I think I see Randy Wakeman's point about overcharged verbiage to describe ordinary shotgun functioning.

If a Retard can power it, why wouldn't the manufacturer have the good sense to identify the Highly Intelligent Consumer whose profound discernment and demand for high quality and precision machining makes the Mossberg 500 go "Boom"!

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 Post subject: Re: What is an INERTIA POWERED Shotgun?
PostPosted: Mon Sep 14, 2009 12:31 pm 
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My comments were of course with tongue firmly planted in cheek. I suppose there are endless ways to describe springs, particularly if you want to make them sound really special.

There may be a shotgun that exists somewhere that doesn't use inertia one way or another, but I've never heard of one.

Don't moving gas pistons have inertia? Don't O/U with inertia triggers use inertia? Doesn't a firing pin have inertia?

To get the straight dope, I consult Julius Sumner Miller, a man who knows his inertia: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hyw9uNF4nmE

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 Post subject: Re: What is an INERTIA POWERED Shotgun?
PostPosted: Mon Sep 14, 2009 8:54 pm 
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Quote:
There may be a shotgun that exists somewhere that doesn't use inertia one way or another, but I've never heard of one


I'm trying to think what "recoil component" (per inertia) that an old outside hammer double-barrel shotgun uses? :roll:


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 Post subject: Re: What is an INERTIA POWERED Shotgun?
PostPosted: Mon Sep 14, 2009 8:59 pm 
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The hammers themselves have inertia, as does the firing pins. The gun itself also has mass, resistance to a change in the state of motion of that mass, and therefore inertia.

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 Post subject: Re: What is an INERTIA POWERED Shotgun?
PostPosted: Mon Sep 14, 2009 9:16 pm 
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Physics aside, Inertia Powered/Driven is a trade mark. It also seperates this operation from other auto loading operation types. I could not care less if it works off true and pure inertia. The fact is it's a clever and simple design. It has it's negatives but, more positives.


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 Post subject: Re: What is an INERTIA POWERED Shotgun?
PostPosted: Mon Sep 14, 2009 9:18 pm 
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If you could just shake a shotgun and the shot would fly out at 1300 FPS I would call it "Inertia Powered" but as it stands I still say it's gun powder powered with maybe an inertia operating assist.
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Still a gimmick IMHO :roll: .


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 Post subject: Re: What is an INERTIA POWERED Shotgun?
PostPosted: Mon Sep 14, 2009 9:43 pm 
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PhilG wrote:
If you could just shake a shotgun and the shot would fly out at 1300 FPS I would call it "Inertia Powered" but as it stands I still say it's gun powder powered with maybe an inertia operating assist.
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Still a gimmick IMHO :roll: .

I would not call in "inertia operating assist" I would call it recoil inertia powered because it uses the inertia from the recoil of the gun.

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 Post subject: Re: What is an INERTIA POWERED Shotgun?
PostPosted: Mon Sep 14, 2009 9:51 pm 
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Randy-true , in a way. But how does that recoil ♦"inertia" power anything in the old hammer gun?

The initial topic of the inertia powered shotgun still makes me wonder what is mechanically activated (not just general physics of action/reaction).

In the old hammered double-barrel: Not the hammers, not the firing pins? What mechanism is "inertia powered" by the gun itself ?

{in other words: after the gun has been fired, what 'work' did the the inertia of the gun do for the operator?}

I see your semantic point...but then you could say that all shotguns are radioactive too! :wink:




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