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 Post subject: Lead (as in 'leed') in Trap shooting
PostPosted: Mon Oct 05, 2009 4:17 pm 
Field Grade

Joined: Tue Oct 11, 2005 11:02 am
Posts: 30
Location: Adirondacks, NY
I had a recent post regarding the use of a 20 Ga. in Trap. In that post, I was exploring some of the things I may be doing wrong at the game, causing low scores. I have not had much practice, and understand of course, that will help. I was aking whether I was using the proper loads...and someone had commented about the "lead" (not metal, but as in 'sustained', etc.) I was using. This was interesting to me, since I have not been using ANY to date on the Trap field. I sort of thought that the small angles that the bird is moving left to right, or vise versa, was not enough to warrent a lead, but that post made me think it may be another contributer to my poor scores. Can anyone comment on the type of lead I should be using, and any tips on experimenting to perfect it? Not sure, but does the fact that I am using a 20 Ga, combined with 7/8 oz - perhaps warrent even more attention to lead? Thanks in advance !




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 Post subject: Re: Lead (as in 'leed') in Trap shooting
PostPosted: Mon Oct 05, 2009 5:29 pm 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Tue Mar 31, 2009 4:48 pm
Posts: 241
Location: St. Louis, MO.
Your right, that may be why your missing. Even trap requires a lead. Even many of the straight away targets aren't truly straight away and will require some left/right type of lead. I shoot a swing through with trap targets and I break them quickly. Don't rely too much on what I say because I shoot mostly sporting. But, I shoot rounds of trap quite often warming up for sporting. How much......couldn't tell you. I don't pay attention to my sight window on the gun I'm now using because I'm so used to it. It's definately a timing thing for me.


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 Post subject: Re: Lead (as in 'leed') in Trap shooting
PostPosted: Mon Oct 05, 2009 6:07 pm 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2009 3:07 am
Posts: 218
Location: Winnemucca, NV
lead in trap is not nearly as important as it is in skeet. just because the angle are not as harsh. remington has a great pdf that could help you understand the lead required in trap.

http://www.remington.com/pdfs/trap_fund ... s_2004.pdf

you will notice that most of the shots shown it is either no lead or a few inches. if you hold right on with a target that only needs a few inches of lead just the spreading of the pattern will hit the target. even with your 20ga 7/8 oz. (note: i shoot 7/8 out of my 12ga for practice with a full choke its not that big of a handicap.)

also in trap you are obtaining your lead on the target by swinging through the target. even if you pull the trigger right when you are on the target by the time the hammer hits the firing pin the pin hits the primer the primer ignites the powder the powder burns pushing the shot out of the barrel (even if this happens in .0001 of a second) that is time that your momentum swinging past the bird will give you some sort of a lead. this may also another reason you don't believe you don't use any lead on the targets.

Realize that you do need some sort of lead left to right but also up and down. In trap you are shooting a rising target so you have to lead it up. (if you are shooting it while it is still rising not at the peak or when it starts to drop) That's why people that shoot trap use dedicated trap guns they are made to throw your pattern higher than where their bead is aimed at. why? well that way they don't have to worry about the how much they have to lead it up and down, that lead is consistent no matter the angle the bird comes out of the house. If the gun will take care of that then they dont have to. also another thing if you shoot a flat shooting gun like yours to get the lead up and down correct you may have to cover up the target. i hate doing that so my gun shoots high.

Another thing if you took the things that are most important in shooting trap while you are at the station how much lead would come distant last. there are many other things that are much more important. picking your head off of the gun, checking your bead during your swing, stopping your swing, not getting a good look at the target, etc... lead is at the bottom of this list.

Don't be afraid to ask at the range you are shooting at for some help. You could be having troubles with more than one, but without being there it is impossible to tell. helped two people while i was waiting to shoot one time just watching them each was doing one of the things above. I usually don't try to help unless asked but they were just very simple mistakes. I stopped them and explained what they were doing wrong. They broke more than on their first three stations than they did their entire round before. There is help out there but also expect to get what you pay for in advise. Don't be shy just ask.


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 Post subject: Re: Lead (as in 'leed') in Trap shooting
PostPosted: Mon Oct 05, 2009 6:11 pm 
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The hard lefts or rights take a lead about a barrel's width as seen from the shooter's viewpoint. But that is a 12 gauge barrel width. With a 20 ga that would be a barrel width + a skoesch.

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 Post subject: Re: Lead (as in 'leed') in Trap shooting
PostPosted: Mon Oct 05, 2009 6:18 pm 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2009 3:07 am
Posts: 218
Location: Winnemucca, NV
gary posted while I was righting one of my "articles".

he is correct when I shooting trap it comes down to more of a timing thing of hitting your trigger when you get the correct picture of bird/bead.

also gary I think he uses swing through. he just said sustained to get the point about "leed" and not the Pb atomic number 82. I read it that way when i first read the post and was "oh dear" :shock:


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 Post subject: Re: Lead (as in 'leed') in Trap shooting
PostPosted: Mon Oct 05, 2009 11:33 pm 
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Here are some good pics that should help:
Image
Sight Picture
When a 24 inch lead is called for, your sight picture would be two gun muzzles ahead of the target.

These leads are based on shooting from the 16yard line.
ImageImage

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 Post subject: Re: Lead (as in 'leed') in Trap shooting
PostPosted: Tue Oct 06, 2009 6:16 am 
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Joined: Tue Oct 11, 2005 11:02 am
Posts: 30
Location: Adirondacks, NY
Thanks for all the great information. I printed out the PDF, segment above....and have a question. Why is the lead from station 1 on leftmost angle smaller than the lead from station 5 at the rightmost angle shot - when seemingly same angles and distances? Does it have something to do with gun being on right side (with rightie)? Looks like a foot different lead...

Thanks again - looks like I have to get out and experiment!


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 Post subject: Re: Lead (as in 'leed') in Trap shooting
PostPosted: Tue Oct 06, 2009 7:08 am 
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Joined: Thu Mar 17, 2005 8:38 am
Posts: 393
Hi

Lead! Leed! Typically trap is shot with a pass through technique and not a sustained lead which is preferred by most in skeet. Follow through is very important.

It would make the sport more difficult if one was trying to look at the barrel and measure the lead before firing. I think this might cause you to stop your swing.

Swing through and fire. Even a straight away is rising and you need to follow through with the upward movement or you will shoot under it.

Follow through is very important!!


W&W


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 Post subject: Re: Lead (as in 'leed') in Trap shooting
PostPosted: Tue Oct 06, 2009 8:03 am 
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LostGrouse wrote:
Why is the lead from station 1 on leftmost angle smaller than the lead from station 5 at the rightmost angle shot - when seemingly same angles and distances?

Outstanding question! I wish I had the answer for you. I just posted the pics without really looking at them. I'm not sure I use different leads when shooting. Hmmm...

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 Post subject: Re: Lead (as in 'leed') in Trap shooting
PostPosted: Tue Oct 06, 2009 10:51 am 
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Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2009 3:07 am
Posts: 218
Location: Winnemucca, NV
when i was looking at this I the only thing i can figurae is it is right hand bias. the hold points on are also very different from station 1 to 2. not really sure why could just be that one side it is easier to swing to the target or the target is easier to see. so it doesn't get out as far. :?:


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 Post subject: Re: Lead (as in 'leed') in Trap shooting
PostPosted: Tue Oct 06, 2009 3:20 pm 
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Lead and follow is important in centering targets. As well as trigger timing. This is the data your human targeting solutions computer (brain) is trying to accumulate. Once established it becomes the subconscious trigger, with the gun firing without any deliberate action or thoughtful command.

When we talk about setting the POI (point of impact), this is the vertical lead that relates to your physical, visual and mental timing. Also the preference in sight picture....holding under the target (float) or visual contact with the target. With the vertical POI set we realize that angle targets and our personal timing/speed is the last remaining aspect of centering trap targets. This is accomplished by our move, point and trigger timing. Also a different perception for all of us. In my minds eye I see about a foot lead on a hard left from post one (righthand shooter driving the gun into my mount) and see about 2 foot lead going after a hard right from post 5. We all tend to move a bit slower while pushing the gun away from our face/mount. The next shooter you visit with may see less or more lead in their perception. Once you have established the sight pictures on all angles and have confidence, you will be able to give the target more visual attention. This improving your trap game.

Follow is what you do with the gun after the shot has cleared the barrel. Has effect on shot placement because you are starting the follow before the shot has cleared. Stopping the gun short or diving it aggressively past while firing delivers the pattern in significantly different locations. As much as 1.5 patterns at target distance. So...if you hit the target on its back side, you will need to evaluate why the pattern was behind. Its either the back sight(eye looking down the barrel), moving too slow or stopping early. Clip the nose off the target and you are moving too fast out of control, back sight, or over leading. Judge your follow by being able to see the target break clearly over the barrel.

Actually "lead" is the hard part of any clay shooting disciplines. The reason its hard to learn and maintain, lead is at the mercy of the human behind the gun. We can't mechanically set it or develop perfection. Its integrated into our vision, subconscious and timing. Reactive to distraction, stress, blood suger and pressure. Its a perception and our subconscious realizes its variance and failings. Knows when your at peak performance or having a bad day. One of the key differences between AAA and D class.

Heck ya shotgun-sport....lead is "very" important.

Maltzie

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 Post subject: Re: Lead (as in 'leed') in Trap shooting
PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 4:39 pm 
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Joined: Sun May 31, 2009 9:00 am
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Location: GatorCountry, USA
LostGrouse wrote:
Why is the lead from station 1 on leftmost angle smaller than the lead from station 5 at the rightmost angle shot - when seemingly same angles and distances?


These leads and diagrams go back to the 1969 Remington book "Trapshooting" authored by D.Lee Braun which have been reprinted countless times by other publications since then.

In pages 109 and 117 the author explains at length the reason for the added lead on the right angle targets in stations 4 and 5 and the camera-gun rig photos in the book bear witness that he is correct.

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 Post subject: Re: Lead (as in 'leed') in Trap shooting
PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 8:11 pm 
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Joined: Tue May 19, 2009 6:57 pm
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Looking at the diagrams, if the targets are set to ATA specifications at 17° right and left of center line, the hard angle targets are straightaways from about 3 feet inside of posts one and five. This means that you have to stay inside the target path when shooting those presentations from posts one and five. The first diagram shows a shot path outside the target path, a guaranteed miss. Further, you darn well better have some right side lead on that same presentation from post two.


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 Post subject: Re: Lead (as in 'leed') in Trap shooting
PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 8:12 pm 
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Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 9:17 pm
Posts: 2082
Location: Land of Oz
The only reason I can think of for giving the hard rights from 5 more lead than the hard lefts from 1 is that the shooter is slowing his swing on the hard right.
Geometrically they should be the same, even accounting for a gun mounted on the left or right side of the shooter.




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