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 Post subject: .410 bore for HD?
PostPosted: Sat Oct 17, 2009 11:10 am 
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I noticed that Mossberg carries a .410 bore "Home Defender" shotgun. The point of my question is not "is a .410 better for HD than a 12 gauge?" because clearly it isn't imo. What I'm wondering is how viable an option is a .410 as an HD gun? What benefits could it bring to the table? I'm picking up an old Stevens SxS in .410 bore today in a trade, and while I don't believe it'll be my go-to HD gun, it might be a good pick for the wife, or a possible trunk gun. What does the basement think about this?

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 Post subject: Re: .410 bore for HD?
PostPosted: Sat Oct 17, 2009 11:37 am 
The majority opinion I think you'll find here is that for defense it is somewhat better than being unarmed, but perhaps more dangerous. :shock:

A 12ga pump (new or used) will be pretty inexpensive and will actually stop an attacker and save your life. I would hate to try that with a .410. The .410 is great for what it was designed for, but not for defending your life.


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 Post subject: Re: .410 bore for HD?
PostPosted: Sat Oct 17, 2009 11:47 am 
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There is nothing special enough about a 410 that is not already accomplished with a 45LC Ruger Blackhawk. (For HD)

You can get heavier loads for the Blackhawk which would dwarf the 3" so-called-magnum 410 rounds.

Self defense ammo for the 45LC is more readily available as well.

And a 7.5" Blackhawk is alot more compact than any shotgun.

My $.02


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 Post subject: Re: .410 bore for HD?
PostPosted: Sat Oct 17, 2009 11:59 am 
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A full-sized .410 with 3" 000 shells wouldn't be too bad for home defense.

http://www.brassfetcher.com/Winchester% ... 0buck.html

Though something in 7.62x39mm would be about the same size and weight, same recoil, and make a bigger hole with the right ammo.

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 Post subject: Re: .410 bore for HD?
PostPosted: Sat Oct 17, 2009 8:49 pm 
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arrkhal wrote:
A full-sized .410 with 3" 000 shells wouldn't be too bad for home defense.

I was thinking a 3" hp slug in one barrel with a 3" 000 in the other. Should be a formidable combo lol.

arrkhal wrote:
Though something in 7.62x39mm would be about the same size and weight, same recoil, and make a bigger hole with the right ammo.

I agree with that statement. I do have an AK-47 and a SKS, and I would likely go for one of those first. The side-by-side should be easier for the wifey to use though to back me up with if the shtf.

Btw, here's the new shotty. It's a Stevens Model 311 .410 sxs. Got a variety of loads on the saddle to make things interesting. Two 18" barrels full of fun! :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: .410 bore for HD?
PostPosted: Sun Oct 18, 2009 8:40 am 
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Dirt Rich wrote:
arrkhal wrote:
A full-sized .410 with 3" 000 shells wouldn't be too bad for home defense.

I was thinking a 3" hp slug in one barrel with a 3" 000 in the other. Should be a formidable combo lol.



A slug in a .410 is a 98 grain slug at a fairly low velocity. It is a pitifully weak performer.

Likewise, the buckshot is poor compared to a full sized shotgun like a 12 gauge.

If a .410 is all you have.....Then save your money and buy a 12 gauge for home defense.

A .410 is a very poor choice for home defense, no offense.

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 Post subject: Re: .410 bore for HD?
PostPosted: Sun Oct 18, 2009 12:53 pm 
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Old_Painless wrote:

A slug in a .410 is a 98 grain slug at a fairly low velocity. It is a pitifully weak performer.

Likewise, the buckshot is poor compared to a full sized shotgun like a 12 gauge.

If a .410 is all you have.....Then save your money and buy a 12 gauge for home defense.

A .410 is a very poor choice for home defense, no offense.


First up I have to say that the 410 is the smallest of the common shotgun gauges and thus the poorest performer terminally when compared to it bigger brothers. That said the performance is IMHO adequate for HD if you have no other better options. Better than a sharp stick or a hammer for sure and I would argue in some situations and for some users better than a common caliber semi-auto handgun.

The 410 slug is often disparage but it performs fairly well, better than you might expect. Yes it is a light slug varying in weight from about 93gr to 114gr depending on manufacture. Velocity is on par with other foster slugs of other gauges; varying from the high 1500fps to over 1800fps again depending on manufacture. All but the Silver/Golden Bear (Barnual) slugs produce over 700ft-lbs of muzzle energy from most 410 shotguns. This is more than your 9mm or 45ACP handguns and on par or greater than many factory 357 Mag loads.

If a 410 was all you had for HD then I would suggest loading it with Brenneke 3 inch 410 Silver slugs. I have done a lot of testing and hunting with all commercially available 410 slugs (see link in signature) and the Brenneke slugs are by far the best performers. In a test I did the Brenneke 410 slug, it out performed a 10mm Auto handgun I compared it to. In both water jug and wet catalog penetration tests the 114gr hard cast Brenneke hybrid-slug out penetrated a 180gr Hornady XTP bullet and retain a higher percentage of its weight. For the full test see the link below.

http://mcb-homis.com/bren/bren.htm

As for 410 buckshot if you compare 3-inch 410 buckshot that is usually comprised of five pellets of 000-bk it looks pretty good when compared to many of the tactical or managed recoil buckshot that I see used in many HD 12ga shotguns. The 410 launches five ~70gr 000-kb pellets at ~1100fps, that is 188ft-lbs per pellet or about 940ft-lbs total. The manage recoil buckshot has similar velocity of ~1100fps with 8 or 9 ~54gr 00-bk pellets. That is about 145ft-lbs per pellet or (8-pellet) 1160ft-lbs or (9-pellet) 1305ft-lbs. I have seen few people argue that you need more than the manage recoil/tactical buckshot for HD when loaded in a 12 gauge. The 410 with 3 inch shells has slightly more energy per pellet and only 20-30% less total energy.

Again I am not trying to say that the 410 shotgun is the best choice for HD but if you select the proper ammunition then the 410 shotgun can be an adequately capable HD weapon. It has very low recoil while still being a very light weight shoulder fired weapon which can be desirable for someone of very small stature or physically limited is someway. Similarly for someone that is physically limited (especially weak hand strength, say in older people) a semi-auto handgun may be to difficult to operate, aim (do to aging eyes/poor lighting) and fire effectively. A 410 shotgun takes little hand strength to operate, has and long sight radius to help aiming and has comparable or better terminal performance then 9mm, 40S&W, or 45ACP.

mcb

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 Post subject: Re: .410 bore for HD?
PostPosted: Sat Oct 24, 2009 11:21 am 
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Thanks mcbirch. Very interesting site. So I guess the overall conclusion is that the slug is more effective than the buckshot people selling the Mossberg 410 HD like to talk about.


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 Post subject: Re: .410 bore for HD?
PostPosted: Sun Oct 25, 2009 9:05 am 
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The wound channel from three hits of 00 buckshot at 10' to 20' from a .410 is no less than the same from a 12ga. Same projectile mass and same velocity. Only difference is you get more possible hits with the 12ga. But from the distance involved in HD, three 00 hits to the chest or head is going to stop the threat.


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 Post subject: Re: .410 bore for HD?
PostPosted: Sun Oct 25, 2009 6:08 pm 
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a friend of mine just bought one of the mossberg 410 PGO. he is 60yo and of small stature. needless to say I was belittleing him in a fun way for buying a boy toy :lol: . after reading the post and visiting the website, I might have to eat a little crow :wink: .
I am going to refer him to the site so he can get some of the right ammo.
Thanks for the input.

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 Post subject: Re: .410 bore for HD?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 9:16 am 
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Has anyone tried the Federal Premium .410 Handgun ammunition (Personal Defense) in a shotgun yet? I have a Mossberg 500 that I have cut the barrel down to 18". I picked up a box over the weekend, went to the range this morning to see how it patterned. I shot a standard B-27 target at 5yds, 10yds, and 15 yds for a total of three shots. These shells each have four 000 pellets in them. Out of the 12 pellets total, 11 of them were in a five inch group, one pellet opened it to eight inchs. Not too shabby. The box claims a muzzle velocity of 1200fps, I did not have time to chronograph it. But there was almost no recoil from the pump gun. At six shots and neglegable recoil I would not hesitate to use it if it hit the fan.


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 Post subject: Re: .410 bore for HD?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 6:38 pm 
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You even get hit with one 00 buck at 15-30 ft. one would not want to "play" bad guy any more...
My dad has a Judge with the 3" cylinder.With the 3" Fed's ( 000 Buck) and a double tap of the trigger....
Plenty of "play dead bad guy" to go around.


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 Post subject: Re: .410 bore for HD?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 9:07 pm 
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FORKLIFT352 wrote:
You even get hit with one 00 buck at 15-30 ft. one would not want to "play" bad guy any more...

Unfortunately you have no way of knowing if the individual you confront is simply "playing" bad guy if he really is a BMF bent on doing you harm. One 00 buck that does not shut off the CNS or cause RAPID exsanguination is not going to stop the one who isn't playing.
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My dad has a Judge with the 3" cylinder.With the 3" Fed's ( 000 Buck) and a double tap of the trigger....
Plenty of "play dead bad guy" to go around.
If you hit him with all of the pellets in a vital area and if they penetrate enough to hit those vitals. The velocity from that short tube has to be greatly reduced from that acheived by using a longer barrel. I would think that the rifling in the short barrel would prevent a good tight pattern which, with proper shot placement, would put all of the pellets in the vitals. If I had a Judge and wanted to use it for defense I would load it with some Buffalo Bore .45 Colt rounds.

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 Post subject: Re: .410 bore for HD?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 9:01 am 
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Buffalo Bore .45 Colt rounds

Exactly...I'm just not sure why folks want to "play" at self defense. My life is worth more to me (and my family sure is) than to enter into any self defense situation without the odds heavily stacked in my favor. If I could carry a 12 gauge or AR concealed, I would. I keep both handy in my home - as well as a Glock.

.410's are fun little guns and have their place. HD is just not one of them.


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 Post subject: Re: .410 bore for HD?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 1:04 pm 
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PeteCamp wrote:
.410's are fun little guns and have their place. HD is just not one of them.


This.

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 Post subject: Re: .410 bore for HD?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 2:04 pm 
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PeteCamp wrote:
Quote:
Buffalo Bore .45 Colt rounds

Exactly...I'm just not sure why folks want to "play" at self defense. My life is worth more to me (and my family sure is) than to enter into any self defense situation without the odds heavily stacked in my favor. If I could carry a 12 gauge or AR concealed, I would. I keep both handy in my home - as well as a Glock.

.410's are fun little guns and have their place. HD is just not one of them.


I don't think anyone is saying that a 410 bore shotgun is a great HD cartridge. There are many better choices. That said, there are a lot of poorer choices for HD especially if you take the time to pick the best possible 410 ammunition.

The Judge is very much a separate issue that has been beaten to death in other threads.

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 Post subject: Re: .410 bore for HD?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 2:29 pm 
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I would only use a .410 if it was the only thing I had, and I was too broke (couldn't scrape up a couple hundred) to buy a used 12 gauge.

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 Post subject: Re: .410 bore for HD?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 5:05 pm 
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That said, there are a lot of poorer choices for HD especially if you take the time to pick the best possible 410 ammunition.

There are not that many that come to my mind. But anyway, my point is that given the horrible consequences of failure in a HD setting, why would you want to risk it? Wouldn't it be better to stack all the odds you possibly could in your favor?

I understand what you're saying. I would just hate to see someone get killed because I told them a .410 was "adequate with the best ammo" for defending their life.


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 Post subject: Re: .410 bore for HD?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 5:09 pm 
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PeteCamp wrote:
Quote:
That said, there are a lot of poorer choices for HD especially if you take the time to pick the best possible 410 ammunition.

There are not that many that come to my mind. But anyway, my point is that given the horrible consequences of failure in a HD setting, why would you want to risk it? Wouldn't it be better to stack all the odds you possibly could in your favor?



As Clint Smith notes, "Always cheat, always win." :wink:

I want every advantage I can get before the fight starts. I want the "best of the best".

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 Post subject: Re: .410 bore for HD?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 5:21 pm 
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A 410 long gun would be better than a pistol. As far as long guns, even a pistol caliber carbine is going to have comparable energy to a .410, and probably have better magazine capacity.


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