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 Post subject: Sellier & Bellot
PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 2:14 pm 
Field Grade

Joined: Mon Oct 26, 2009 5:13 am
Posts: 25
Location: MS
I have a batch of these hulls that were roll crimped. They were loaded with 00 buck 1 1/4 oz.

Been toying with the idea of getting the roll crimp thing that Midway has in their catalog.

What I can't come up with is any data on the S&B hull.

Good looking hull, med brass, plastic base, 2 3/4 length, ribbed. So clean you would think they were unfired, but I remember shooting them. lol

Should I toss them, or play with them to see what I can do? Would like to do a 9 shot 00 buck load.


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 Post subject: Re: Sellier & Bellot
PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 3:59 pm 
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Posts: 1237
Location: south texas
BeauBeaux wrote:
I have a batch of these hulls that were roll crimped. They were loaded with 00 buck 1 1/4 oz.

Been toying with the idea of getting the roll crimp thing that Midway has in their catalog.

What I can't come up with is any data on the S&B hull.

Good looking hull, med brass, plastic base, 2 3/4 length, ribbed. So clean you would think they were unfired, but I remember shooting them. lol

Should I toss them, or play with them to see what I can do? Would like to do a 9 shot 00 buck load.

I know less than a retarded mouse does abt buckshot, and maybe even less about S&B hull profiles, but I DO know a bit about roll-crimping and roll-crimping toolheads, and the VERY best one there is today is Precision Reloading's steel head. Period. End of story. It's even better than the justifiably famous (but discontinued) Lyman head.

There's a board here about slug and buck hunting. Those are the folks to ask abt reloading buck.


GS


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 Post subject: Re: Sellier & Bellot
PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 4:09 pm 
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Location: BRANCHVILLE, s.c.
The precision blanks to supersonics manual has data for S&B hulls but I think it is just for folded crimps. Roll crimp would probably give less pressure.


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 Post subject: Re: Sellier & Bellot
PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 4:33 pm 
Field Grade

Joined: Mon Oct 26, 2009 5:13 am
Posts: 25
Location: MS
Goatskin, I really appreciate the tip on the roll crimp tool.

Geometric, I'll do a search to see who has the manual.

Maybe I'll get lucky and find a place that has both to save on shipping.

Didn't think about posting in the hunting forum . Still learning my way around the place.

Edit: Requested the catalog from Precision on their website.


Last edited by BeauBeaux on Tue Oct 27, 2009 4:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Sellier & Bellot
PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 4:36 pm 
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Joined: Tue Oct 27, 2009 4:12 pm
Posts: 3
cut the hull inhalf length way(but not the metal) and compare it to other hulls you have loaded or from a reloading book showing the case bases. All the S&B hulls I have used I have just threw them away after fired. They had a thick plastic cup base and a thin hull and I prefer the Winchester AA style of hull being compression formed tapered case being in my opinion more stable of a case. But it is all in what you like to shoot and I do more Brids and Skeet that Larger shot size loads. So look around and be safe. bf


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 Post subject: Re: Sellier & Bellot
PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 5:06 pm 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Sun Feb 08, 2009 12:05 am
Posts: 1237
Location: south texas
Precision Reloading is the source of ~Blanks to Supersonics~ also. PR is goooood folks, and hunters, all.

If you want to load slugs, also, PR also sells Sabot Technologies roll-crimp head that lets you have an exposed tip, too.

There is (can be) a little pressure/velocity delta in roll- & fold- but usually they are pretty close. I go up a half-grain on powder if I'm rolling v. folding ... if I think abt it (I usually don't bother).


GS


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 Post subject: Re: Sellier & Bellot
PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 5:36 pm 
Reloading Expert
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All the S&B 12 ga hulls I've seen had a very unusual base wad in them requiring a very unique wad. The powder charge needs to be just so and the wad needs to fit just right on top of the ledge on the base wad. They work/look nothing like the Federal paper wad or the infamous AAHS base wad. My advise, go straight to the trash, do not pass GO, do not collect $200.

BP

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 Post subject: Re: Sellier & Bellot
PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 6:01 pm 
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Joined: Mon Oct 26, 2009 5:13 am
Posts: 25
Location: MS
Burnt Powder, advise noted.

Now to hijack my own thread. I have some 3 inch and 3 1/2's [Remingtons] I would like to cut down to 2 3/4. Which cutter is recommended, so I don't waste good money?

I usually [99%] load regular 2 3/4 12ga AA hulls. With some 20's and 410's as well. Some target, some field loads. This I'm talking about with the roll crimp and cutting down hulls is something I just want to try.

Been loading pistol and rifle rounds a long time. Shotshells has only been in the last few years, so still learning.


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 Post subject: Re: Sellier & Bellot
PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 6:05 pm 
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BeauBeaux wrote:
Burnt Powder, advise noted.

Now to hijack my own thread. I have some 3 inch and 3 1/2's [Remingtons] I would like to cut down to 2 3/4. Which cutter is recommended, so I don't waste good money?

I usually [99%] load regular 2 3/4 12ga AA hulls. With some 20's and 410's as well. Some target, some field loads. This I'm talking about with the roll crimp and cutting down hulls is something I just want to try.

Been loading pistol and rifle rounds a long time. Shotshells has only been in the last few years, so still learning.

Before you invest a bunch of time cutting down hulls, I suggest that you section one lengthwise and see if what you have compares to anything in the available recipes. If you have to develop loads for an obscure hybrid hull and then pressure test them for safety, it might not be worth doing.
Just a thought.

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 Post subject: Re: Sellier & Bellot
PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 7:13 pm 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Sun Feb 08, 2009 12:05 am
Posts: 1237
Location: south texas
BeauBeaux wrote:
Now to hijack my own thread. I have some 3 inch and 3 1/2's [Remingtons] I would like to cut down to 2 3/4. Which cutter is recommended, so I don't waste good money?

There is only one hull cutter worth buying and it is a great one: http://www.leadtradingpost.com/products.html#cutter

That said, Curly is right. The Remington 3 & 3½" hulls are straight-wall, low-plastic-basewad hulls are would (probably) be good for your buck loads, but otherwise they are just like any other straight-wall hull and cut hulls have a different process for re-loading over 'normal' once-fired 2¾" hulls.


GS


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 Post subject: Re: Sellier & Bellot
PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 9:27 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jun 15, 2004 11:55 am
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Location: BRANCHVILLE, s.c.
I never shot any but have a hundred or so. According Precision's data, they yield very good ballistics with relatively low pressure, theoretically due to the basewad design. The best hull depends on what you want to load in it & the ballistics you want.


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 Post subject: Re: Sellier & Bellot
PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 10:58 pm 
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geometric,

You thinking of S&B or B&P?

B&P have the Gordon system base wad that is supposed to minimize recoil. Maybe? I can't say I could tell any difference.

BP

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 Post subject: Re: Sellier & Bellot
PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 11:06 pm 
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Burnt Powder wrote:
geometric,

You thinking of S&B or B&P?

B&P have the Gordon system base wad that is supposed to minimize recoil. Maybe? I can't say I could tell any difference.

BP

Unless they were free, the big diff was not in your back pocket, but theirs!

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 Post subject: Re: Sellier & Bellot
PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 11:08 pm 
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Curley, yes they were free!

Just not a lot of them. Enough to tell they weren't worth the extra money to me. Heck the empties didn't even reload all that great.

They was purty though! :wink:

BP

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 Post subject: Re: Sellier & Bellot
PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 11:30 pm 
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Joined: Sun Feb 08, 2009 12:05 am
Posts: 1237
Location: south texas
Burnt Powder wrote:
Curley, yes they were free! Just not a lot of them. Enough to tell they weren't worth the extra money to me. Heck the empties didn't even reload all that great. BP

Then you paid what they were worth.

That 'Gordon System' shock-absorber hoo-dickie only works for the original firing.

After that, they are lower-end Misc. Eurotrash with a spongy basewad, but they ARE handsome, I agree.


GS


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 Post subject: Re: Sellier & Bellot
PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 5:26 am 
Field Grade

Joined: Mon Oct 26, 2009 5:13 am
Posts: 25
Location: MS
A shell that has been fired once, should be reloadable with the same load. Provided one can find data for that hull.

Cutting down a 3 or 3 1/2 to 2 3/4 should make for a nice roll crimp.

This was what I was thinking. But, I've also been told I wasn't the sharpest pencil in the box.


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 Post subject: Re: Sellier & Bellot
PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 9:23 am 
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Joined: Tue Jun 15, 2004 11:55 am
Posts: 3212
Location: BRANCHVILLE, s.c.
OOPS!!, That is right, I am confusing the S&B hull with the Bascheri & Pellagri hull. I didn't stop & think that there could be two different hulls with a name that strange. Sorry, I know nothing about the S&B hull. I would load it though if it were worth loading & I could find data. Maybe that is why there is no data & why they are called Eurotrash. Could also be because there are not many around. If it were a hard to get ga., it would probably be worth the effort, but with the proliferation of 12 ga. hulls out there, why bother?


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 Post subject: Re: Sellier & Bellot
PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 1:11 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jul 28, 2009 8:18 am
Posts: 118
OK this should probably be it's own thread but...

How does one roll crimp? I have a couple of the lyman roll crimp dies. I stuck one in a cordless drill and spun it on a loaded shell i pulled out of my 9000g before the pre-crimp stage (it was an older AA hull). It certainly didn't make a nice crimp. It kind of folded the plastic over on itself and ruined the hull. I dumped the shot uot and threw the hull away. I've been told a drill press is necessary but I don't think that caused my bad result. I tried it more out of curiosity than anything else.

Does it require special hulls (perhaps ones that have never been crimped)?

Thanks

Jim


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 Post subject: Re: Sellier & Bellot
PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 1:51 pm 
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Joined: Sun Feb 08, 2009 12:05 am
Posts: 1237
Location: south texas
BB and jt07 ...

BB ... cut your Rem 3 & 3½" down and you have perfect fodder. Perfect. Good thick plactic is easy to roll-crimp.

Roll crimping is easier on virgin hulls, but 'easier' doesn't mean that fired fold-crimps can't be rolled quite successfully; it just means you have to 'iron' the hull as angle-free as you can get it.

A variable-speed drill is a good and workable tool. If you have not seen BPI's video, here 'tis: http://www.ballisticproducts.com/bpi/ar ... lcrimp.mpg

To roll-crimp, you have to have a couple of simple things in order, then, after you ruin a few hulls, you get 'the feel', then it is almost like cheating:

- you have to have the hull secured, plane & square. You don't need a hull-vice. I've used vice-grips with the jaws taped. My current fave is jamming the hull into a regular 1" loading block onto a piece of old carpet-pad.

- #1 & 1a ... You HAVE to have the tool-head HOT. The easiest way to do that is to turn a junk hull or two down to the brass, before you get down to bidness.

- Speed matters - sometimes too much. Most drill presses are too fast and get the tool too hot. 2-300 rpm is about right.

- A drop of candle-wax or crayola or Rem-oil or ... on the crimp channel every half-dozen hulls makes things mo-bettah.

- Crimping is a matter of heat and pressure, heat first. Put the tool on the hull (making sure the hulls is in the groove all-the-way-around) and get the drill up to speed with no pressure .. 2sec? 3? Then apply a little down-press ... 20#? 30? You'll figure it out. It's a trial & error operation.

- You'll feel when the crimp 'locks'. Done is done. Stop there.

- Every brand of hull is different and each takes its own technique.

Build a few dud loads and practice a bit.


GS


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 Post subject: Re: Sellier & Bellot
PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 2:56 pm 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Tue Jul 28, 2009 8:18 am
Posts: 118
Ha! Well I guess I successfully roll crimped that AA hull then! It definately rolled the rim down just like in that video. I guess an overshot card is a must when you roll crimp then! I was under the impression it was going to spin the plastic and the hull would be a variation on a 6 point crimp with the plastic covering the end of the shell.

That video was very helpful thanks. I just wore a glove and held the shell in place on the bench.


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