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 Post subject: h&r topper junior .410
PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 12:04 am 
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Joined: Sun Dec 06, 2009 11:59 pm
Posts: 6
I have a h&r topper junior. Can this gun be used as a slug gun for deer hunting?? My state allows .410 as a slug load. It has a full choke and a 22 inch barrel. What sighting options do I have ?? Can I put on open sights, and will I need to have a scope ? My son is getting into hunting, and I have this gun. I would really like to use this gun if possible.




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 Post subject: Re: h&r topper junior .410
PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 1:09 am 
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Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2005 8:21 pm
Posts: 221
Location: S. Texas Brush Country
Just my opinion, but I think starting off your young deer hunter with a .410 is giving him a very significant handicap right off the bat and setting him up for a bad experience. The Topper is a nice little beginner's (or expert's) shotgun, and yes, it is possible to kill a deer with a .410 slug, but you have to be very close to the animal and you have very little or no margin for error. It just doesn't consistently put the energy on-target that you need unless you are close and about perfect, and seriously...it verges on the unethical, which again, is JMO. Deer hunting accuracy with a .410 bore (which is actually a 67 gauge...did you realize that it's that small?) is also likely to be marginal. If possible, I recommend you try to set him up with something like a .243 and a decent 4x or 2-7x scope.


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 Post subject: Re: h&r topper junior .410
PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 2:01 am 
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My state does not allow rifle hunting. The .410 is like a .45, correct ?? My state let's guys hunt with handguns. Wouldn't a .410 be just as accurate and devastating as a .45 handgun ?? I don't know. That's why I am asking. I have lots of questions, since I have bowhunted the last several years. I want to teach him to get close anyway, so that's why I thought he could use the .410. I see no skill involved in shooting a deer 150-200 yards away, other than marksmanship. You didn't hunt him, you shot him. No woodsmanship, no scent control. Not condemming rifle hunters at all, but I want to teach him to get close for a clean kill. Maybe I'm asking too much from a small bore. I have a 12 ga. single shot that I want to use next year. Maybe we'll share it. 50-60 yards is a plenty long shot. .410 ammunition prices are through the roof, anyway. I have been out of the gun hunting loop for a long time. I'm not tryijng to make anyone mad, just trying to ask questions and learn. MIKE


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 Post subject: Re: h&r topper junior .410
PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 4:54 am 
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I'd get him a 20 .
If your thinking for next season you'll have 10 months to keep your eye out and you should be able to pick up a good deal on a single shot with rifled sights .

.410 might be legal but it's marginal for deer , but you'd better hit it right where it counts , same as if you were using a .45 of equal power .
A 20 will do the job much better .


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 Post subject: Re: h&r topper junior .410
PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 11:28 am 
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Location: Ohio
I am a big fan of the 410 and particularly 410 slugs and deer hunting with them. The following link is to my website and might be of help/interest.

http://mcb-homis.com/index410.html

Particularly the following article:
http://mcb-homis.com/deer9410/index.htm

But... I would say that the 410 slug is probably not a good choice for a first deer gun for a young hunter. As other have already pointed out it does not leave much room for error and a young hunter needs all the advantages they can get.

The only exception would be for a very mature young hunter that simply cannot handle the recoil of a more capable firearm. A 410 slug gun does offer a very mild recoil and if you have a firearm that shoot 410 slugs accurately and the young hunter that is self-disciplined enough or supervised so that they only take shots well within the 410 slug's range and their capabilities then it would be acceptable IMHO.

I have seen some guys take H&R Topper and similar single shot 410's and have them drilled and taped for a weaver scope rail. There is usually plenty of material around the chamber to allow a gunsmith to drill and tap them with out danger. They then mount a low powered scope or red dot. They also usually have the barrel trimmed to remove the choke so they have a cylinder bore. This usually produces a fairly accurate 410 slug gun.

As for ammunition the first slug I would try would be Brenneke's 3inch 410 Silver Slug. This slug is the heaviest and hardest commercially available 410 slug I have found. It usually shoots moderately accurate out of most 410 shotgun even 410's with some choke/constriction in them. But as usual I would by as many different 410 slugs as I can find and test for which one your particular gun shoots best.

rambling
mcb

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 Post subject: Re: h&r topper junior .410
PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 1:19 pm 
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Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2005 8:21 pm
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Location: S. Texas Brush Country
I'm not tryijng to make anyone mad, just trying to ask questions and learn. MIKE


No one is getting mad, Mike. The .410 is marginal compared to almost any centerfire rifle, or any of the other shotgun gauges. Yes, as I said, if you are experienced, can get close enough, are an excellent shot...sure, you can kill a deer with a .410. Devastating? Compared to what? You can kill a deer with a .22LR and poachers kill many with .22s every year. But the .22, and the more powerful .410 slug are both marginal, just no getting around that. The .410 has a relatively small operating window, packs far less energy than any popular centerfire rifle....except possibly some of those using pistol cartridges...especially after 40-50 yards, and certainly far less than your 12 gauge. Bottom line: it's a novelty to be used for deer hunting by experienced hunters who understand all it's limitations. You certainly don't need a .300 mag, but a .243...even a .223...is far better than a .410 for a young hunter, IMO. Most experienced hunters like 800-1000 lbs/ft energy on-target as a good rule-of-thumb for adequate power for humane kills. (Yes, yes, shot placement being more important.) That's a widely-used, traditional number. Only a couple .410 slugs will give you that much energy at the muzzle, much less at 50-60 yards or beyond. Any slug sheds power very quickly, even a 12 gauge. So again, for the experienced, excellent shot who understands it's limitations...sure...go for it. For the novice...poor choice. And again, all JMO.


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 Post subject: Re: h&r topper junior .410
PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 1:47 am 
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Joined: Sun Dec 06, 2009 11:59 pm
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Okay, then the .410 is out as a gun for my son. It's fun to shoot though, but expensive. I might try it, though just because I try to get real close anyway. I've been bowhunting for years and will not take a long shot. MAYBE....... Maybe not. Might just go to a better option for both of us. I was just trying to use what we have on hand. I have on Ithaca 900xl or xl900.. can't remember, semi-auto with a modified choke. Is that just tons better ?? I would think so. Also, how hard is it to get a slug barrel for that ??? I could just switch barrels... easy enough if that's available. Right now it has a vented rib with an orange tube bead. I have never slug hunted, so everything is new to me. Thank you for all of the replies. You guys are a great help, and are keeping me from making a huge mistake. Thanks, MIKE

Oh yeah, by the way... I'm not talking about a little kid. He's 17 and about 140 lbs. He's shot off of the guns mentioned.


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 Post subject: Re: h&r topper junior .410
PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 2:22 am 
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Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2005 8:21 pm
Posts: 221
Location: S. Texas Brush Country
If your Ithaca is the 12 gauge you referred to...then yes, it would be a much better option. Just a lot more power and you can kill with it without having to be quite so precise...though again, shot placement is always of primary importance. A mod choke is typically good for slugs. You would want rifled slugs....also called Foster-type slugs...they are designed for smoothbores. (The sabot slugs you see are designed for rifled barrels). Finding a rifled barrel for your Ithaca might be difficult, but you could try some of the on-line gun auction sites, like http://gunbroker.com/ and http://www.auctionarms.com/. But many smoothbores with rifled slugs have excellent hunting accuracy and many deer are taken every year with them. Buy a selection of slugs and try them out...that's the only way to know what your gun shoots best. If your Ithaca has a vent rib, there are sights available (Tru-glo comes to mind) that just clamp onto the rib. You might also look into having a gunsmith drilling and tapping the receiver for a scope mount.

Mike, don't get me wrong re: the .410. I have two and I like them. They are definitely fun guns to shoot. And the Topper is a nice little shotgun. I've shot many squirrels, a good number of quail, and even a few rabbits and dove with mine. They are just very marginal, even with slugs, when it comes to deer-sized game. It can be done, but I could never recommend it in good conscience, especially for a young hunter.

P.S. Too bad this guy isn't selling his deer barrel separately...


http://gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.a ... =148763099


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 Post subject: Re: h&r topper junior .410
PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 3:11 am 
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Joined: Sun Dec 06, 2009 11:59 pm
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Dang !!!! That looks just like my gun !! With the scenery on it and all. If I could get a slug barrel, I'd be set. I need that barrel. Do you think I can still find a new one, or is that discontinued?? So, don't shoot sabots, shoot rifled slugs... correct ?? What kind of range and acurracy can I get from that ? I love the Ithaca. I also have a single shot 12 that I am trying to find out about. Seems that it is pretty old and may not be what I want to shoot, either. Keyston Arms single shot. The Ithaca would be the gun for me, though. I'm used to that one for rabbits and squirrel and anything else that moves !!! You guys are great. MIKE


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 Post subject: Re: h&r topper junior .410
PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 12:58 pm 
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Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2005 8:21 pm
Posts: 221
Location: S. Texas Brush Country
mwaym wrote:
Do you think I can still find a new one, or is that discontinued?? It's out of production now but you might get lucky and find a slug barrel for sale on one of those sites.

So, don't shoot sabots, shoot rifled slugs... correct ?? Correct. Rifled slugs are designed for smoothbores; sabot slugs are designed for rifled barrels.

What kind of range and acurracy can I get from that ? Each gun is a little different, but shots up to 50-60 yards, maybe a little more, should be doable and still have good hunting accuracy. The 12 gauge slug will definitely take 'em down at that range. Accuracy becomes more the issue than power. Rifled barrels with sabot slugs will extend effective range out to 100+/-.

I also have a single shot 12 that I am trying to find out about. Seems that it is pretty old and may not be what I want to shoot, either. Keyston Arms single shot. Gun like that might not be safe anymore, particularly with modern ammo. Get it looked over by a professional gunsmith before firing it.


FYI. e-gunparts.com may be helpful to you down the line....

http://www.e-gunparts.com/products_new.asp?CatID=5456


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 Post subject: Re: h&r topper junior .410
PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 10:26 am 
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Google corson's barrels.....he has a 900xl slug barrel......


what the heck buy the barrel from corson and the combo off of gunbroker......you and your son will have a matched pair...........Art



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