CalendarCalendar   Photos  * FAQ
It is currently Sat Sep 20, 2014 9:01 pm

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]





Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 15 posts ] 
Author Message
 Post subject: 1903-1904 FN A-5 Pics!
PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2009 10:40 pm 
Presentation Grade
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2008 3:23 pm
Posts: 766
Location: NE North Carolina
Here is the reciever. It sorta looks like it has been refinished... You can see some marks that look like maybe polishing marks, I dunno? Anyway here you go.
Image

Address on top of the barrel
Image

Serial Number
Image

Buttplate
Image

Right side of receiver, thats not rust on the bolt its just the light hitting it a funny way on another polished up spot...
Image

Forearm...
Image

Stock...
Image

Proof marks on bolt...
Image

Barrel SN...
Image

These are the only marks under the barrel.
Image

These are the markings on the left side of the barrel
Image
Image

Proof mark in front of release button
Image

This is stamped on the bottom of the barrel right below the chamber opening, looks like it was a 06?
Image

And this is the other side of the barrel ring base
Image

_________________
When you stare into the eyes of a Boykin Spaniel you can tell someONE is looking back!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 1903-1904 FN A-5 Pics!
PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2009 11:03 pm 
Crown Grade
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 25, 2006 10:51 pm
Posts: 3832
Location: The Republic of Texas
As you said, it has a mid 1904 receiver, according to Illustrations that have been posted here. Maybe these receivers were made earlier that though.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 1903-1904 FN A-5 Pics!
PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2009 11:22 pm 
Presentation Grade
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2008 3:23 pm
Posts: 766
Location: NE North Carolina
The only info I seem to be unable to locate is the chamber length? I inserted a fired 2.75" shell into the chamber and it seemed to slide in with ease so I hope I'm correct in assuming it has either been converted or it was already a 2.75" gun?

_________________
When you stare into the eyes of a Boykin Spaniel you can tell someONE is looking back!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 1903-1904 FN A-5 Pics!
PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 10:36 am 
Presentation Grade
User avatar

Joined: Tue Apr 07, 2009 8:10 am
Posts: 539
Location: Hannover, Germany
Hi deke12ga,

first of all: congratulations! A most interesting gun.

I agree with you: it looks like it has been refinished. The markings on the barrel indicating the chamber length and the weight are gone. They were there when the gun left the factory, for sure.

Also, the buttplate doesn’t match the age of the gun. This type of buttplates with the FN logo only was used from 1909 to 1923 approximately. Original would be a thick hard rubber buttplate (with mold pattern on the back).



Ole Cowboy wrote:
As you said, it has a mid 1904 receiver, according to Illustrations that have been posted here. Maybe these receivers were made earlier that though.


Ole Cowboy,

Please take the illustration not too serious. I made them as I wanted to have a handy overlook on the several changes of the early years. Meanwhile I know, the drawing isn’t precise: my “mid 1904” is based on the assumption, that Jeff Mull’s 1904 would be earlier than my own 12,400. But it isn’t: Jeff’s is some numbers higher (12,658). So, his 1904 has some early features, but the SN is higher as my 12,400 which has the “late 1904” features.

Seems, all was possible at FN at this time. Judging from the SN it IS a 1903. But it has the type 2 safety, as well as the mag. Cutoff. Both features were applied for patents early in 1904. So, it can’t ruled out, these two features were made already in 1903.

My assumption is: the gun was made in 1903 and was stored at FN until 1904. There, it received the new safety as well as the magazine cutoff.

Or: the owner sent the gun to FN between 1904 and 1909 to have the new safety and the cutoff “upgraded”.

Best regards

Martin

_________________
Value? Open an auction at GB or AA and in two weeks you'll know exactly....


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 1903-1904 FN A-5 Pics!
PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 10:44 am 
Presentation Grade
User avatar

Joined: Tue Apr 07, 2009 8:10 am
Posts: 539
Location: Hannover, Germany
For comparision, look at this 1903 SN 2996:

http://secure.smilebox.com/ecom/openThe ... akeyourown

This is how one would expect a 1903.

Regards

Martin

_________________
Value? Open an auction at GB or AA and in two weeks you'll know exactly....


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 1903-1904 FN A-5 Pics!
PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 2:09 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2005 9:22 am
Posts: 2988
Location: East Mountains, NM
Good looking gun. It doesn't show any of the tell tale signs of being converted to 2 3/4", atleast based on the converted 16's I've seen.

I agree it has been refinished, there's a bit of dishing in the screw heads, but all in all it's a nicely done job.

I'd say you've got a real keeper there, and it should be a great shooter too.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 1903-1904 FN A-5 Pics!
PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 3:16 pm 
Presentation Grade

Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2007 7:03 pm
Posts: 830
Location: Minot, North Dakota
I'm sure our buddy Jeff Mull would enjoy seeing this one...too bad he so darn busy these days.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 1903-1904 FN A-5 Pics!
PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 5:34 pm 
Presentation Grade
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2008 3:23 pm
Posts: 766
Location: NE North Carolina
I sent Jeff a PM so maybe next time he does log in he'll get to see it. I'd love to get his opinion. I was thinking since the refinish job does look so good that maybe when it went back that was when the saftey and mag cutoff upgrades were made. Who knows? If these guns could talk right! As far as being 2-3/4 or not the gun shop owner told me it was a 2.75 gun and I could easily push a fired 2.75 shell into the chamber and it slid all the way in up to the rim of the shell. Maybe the chamber was legthened at the refinish time too? I plan on using the depth gauge on a verneer caliper and compare the measurments from my '48 A-5. That will tell me the chamber length.

_________________
When you stare into the eyes of a Boykin Spaniel you can tell someONE is looking back!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 1903-1904 FN A-5 Pics!
PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 7:44 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Tue May 18, 2004 11:49 am
Posts: 4381
Location: Southwest Georgia, USA
All 12 gauge A-5s except the Magnum have 2 3/4 inch chambers according to Browning Auto-5 Shotguns, The Belgian FN Production.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 1903-1904 FN A-5 Pics!
PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 8:50 pm 
Presentation Grade
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2008 3:23 pm
Posts: 766
Location: NE North Carolina
If you check the second page of my other thread "what have I stumbled onto?" theres a picture of a 12ga barrel marked 65mm which is 2-9/16"... Just goes to show the only rule about A-5's is there are no rules! Which is one reason I love them! Like Forest Gump might say if he were an A-5 fanatic, "There like a box of chocolates, you never know what your gonna get." :lol:
Hey guys, also the FN historian said they were about to finish the second edition of the Browning A-5 book which would illustrate the first 10,000 guns and where they were shipped. He said he would let me know when they went to press. Heres a link to the preview of the book.
http://www.fn-browning.com/Browning%20A ... otguns.htm


P.S. sorry about the bad joke.

_________________
When you stare into the eyes of a Boykin Spaniel you can tell someONE is looking back!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 1903-1904 FN A-5 Pics!
PostPosted: Fri Dec 18, 2009 8:23 am 
ID & Value Expert
ID & Value Expert
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 10:16 am
Posts: 10514
Deke,

That is a very nice and interesting early gun. i don't think that the butt plate is the original, though. However very few are.

_________________
CAUTION: Things may appear closer in the rear view mirror!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 1903-1904 FN A-5 Pics!
PostPosted: Fri Dec 18, 2009 12:13 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Mon Aug 07, 2006 9:56 am
Posts: 6673
Location: Maryland
That gun may have had some rust or tarnish rubbed off the receiver with some kind of abraisive, but refinished? I don't know about that. How do you explain the deep, sharp, numbering and lettering and the condition of the stock? I don't know if the forend is original, don't know how to tell.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 1903-1904 FN A-5 Pics!
PostPosted: Fri Dec 18, 2009 5:14 pm 
Presentation Grade
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2008 3:23 pm
Posts: 766
Location: NE North Carolina
I received this information from Anthony Vanderlinden,the FN historian. It seems its a 1903 gun that was probably assembled sometime later. Somewere around 1919.


"Dear Sir,

I have looked over your pictures in detail. Yours is indeed somewhat of an oddball, although you have an early receiver and barrel with 1903 serial number, it is my opinion that your shotgun was assembled when FN restarted production right after World War I.

The main clue is the PV (poudre vive) marking (smokeless powder) proof on the receiver and bolt. Note also that the bolt has a different inspector’s identifier proof. Pre-WWI guns would not have had the PV proof. The shape and checkering on your forearm is also later part.

Your safety mechanism was introduced after 1905 and was in use by 1909.

This gun was obviously made for the European or World Marked and not made for the U.S. market. Standard for the European market was the addition of sling swivels.

The good news with this later assembly is that your butt-plate may be original, some early horn plates were numbered to the gun (usually last two digits) so it might be worth removing and checking.

The component parts made prior to the invasion of 1914 will be marked with FN’s internal factory proof “Square V”, parts made after World War I will not. Your bolt may or may not have this marking.

For years I have worked with FN and have studied a lot of the manufacturing processes and their trends through the decades. When FN restarted production in 1919, they were in the midst of a huge economic depression and had to deal with labor problems as well as other issues relating to years of occupation. A world recession was in place, some contracts were built in 1919 but sporting arms were not. The first guns were not built from raw materials but rather assembled from available parts. Although the Germans had scavenged finished guns, unfinished shotgun parts were left untouched. This practice lasted through approximately 1922 when a full recovery was accomplished.

Although your gun is refinished, it does not appear to be the work of a FN, as such I do not think that your gun was shipped to the factory and modified and refinished. If a gun was shipped to FN for repair, only the repair would be addressed, your gun shows too many indicators of later assembly. The bluing on your gun appears to be modern salt blue instead of the correct FN rust blue. It appears to have been refinished in the last 30 years. Considered that this is quite apparent and the damage of refinishing has already been done, I would recommend that you have the gun (restored) in the proper Belgian rust blue.

Also if you or anybody on the forum can inform me where I can locate/buy a “Baker Shotgun Dent Raiser” barrel tool, I would be most appreciative.

I hope this helps.
Anthony Vanderlinden."

_________________
When you stare into the eyes of a Boykin Spaniel you can tell someONE is looking back!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 1903-1904 FN A-5 Pics!
PostPosted: Fri Dec 18, 2009 10:45 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Tue May 18, 2004 11:49 am
Posts: 4381
Location: Southwest Georgia, USA
If he just wants a dent raiser, see http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=399/Product/ORIGINAL_ENGLISH_HYDRAULIC_DENT_RAISER


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 1903-1904 FN A-5 Pics!
PostPosted: Sun Dec 20, 2009 5:23 am 
Presentation Grade
User avatar

Joined: Tue Apr 07, 2009 8:10 am
Posts: 539
Location: Hannover, Germany
Hi deke12ga,

thank you very much for presenting Anthny Vanderlinden’s opinion about your gun. It shows quiet nicely, that even an expert can be wrong:

deke12ga wrote:
"Dear Sir,

I have looked over your pictures in detail. Yours is indeed somewhat of an oddball, although you have an early receiver and barrel with 1903 serial number, it is my opinion that your shotgun was assembled when FN restarted production right after World War I.

The main clue is the PV (poudre vive) marking (smokeless powder) proof on the receiver and bolt. Note also that the bolt has a different inspector’s identifier proof. Pre-WWI guns would not have had the PV proof.


That isn’t true.

It is true, that there are early 1903 A-5s not having the PV marking and having inspector’s marking star/J (later guns, i. e. 1904 guns do have inspector’s marking star/T). For example, SN 970 shown in Shirley/Vanderlinden is such a gun without PV and with inspector’s marking star/J. The same configuration on SN 2996.

But it is absolutely NOT TRUE, that all pre 1919 would not have the PV marking on receiver and bolt! My 1904 has it, as well as my 1907 and my 16ga of 1910/11.

OK, you could argue now, that my guns (as well as a lot of others with PV) would have been assembled after WWI.

So, check out an image from a 1909 FN manual for the A-5 in French language:

Image

The manual was discussed already here:

viewtopic.php?f=53&t=200676

You see? The PV marking on the receiver is present. This gun has the same features as yours, btw. This is a period publication, published long before WWI.


deke12ga wrote:
”Your safety mechanism was introduced after 1905 and was in use by 1909."


Nope. 1904 until 1909. The patents are clear, the above mentioned manual is clear, my own #12400 also is clear. Especially the manual is an important source, as there clearly is stated: “all these improvements [e.g. safety type 2 and magazine cuttoff] can be found on guns with serial numbers from 14,000 on”. SN 14,000 was made in 1904….

Next: IF assembled after WWI: why should have FN used the type 2 safety???? They already used the type 3 safety since 1909……

Anyway: please tell me via PM Vanderlinden’s email address. I like to send him some info.

Best regards

Martin

_________________
Value? Open an auction at GB or AA and in two weeks you'll know exactly....


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 15 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Registered users: 10gaugeman, 1100 Remington Man, Alexa [Bot], AMB85, Anatidae, AndyP1992, aspen60, avogunner, bdicki, bigboyd4466, Bing [Bot], Bladeswitcher, Bob_79, budrock56, BuysRemington, camero, Capt D, Capt_Wanderlust, Chubs, ClayBruiser, claypigeon, cowpoke, Customstox, DavidM100, dbuffington, Dirtweed, DLC1951, drcook, dthudon, DUKFVR, eclark53520, eeb, ellenbr, Eriehunter, etech69, Excellent959, Filnez, Ga. Skeet, GoldGuy, Google [Bot], Google Adsense [Bot], Google Feedfetcher, GradeIII, GrizG, Grousen, gunsnrods, HappyShootMore, HogRider357, hopper810, jbrentd, jharrington, Jim Miller, jorau1, jpwheels, jwr50, krimmie, Kyler Hamann, lucky9910, M Parker, m_lang, manveru, Maser, medic15al, millsusaf, mlorr, MWC, NCMikeR, NTxAg, NWGA, oldtechshooter, oregunner, Panhead57, Patently Obvious, piano2ner, px4man, RAR71, riflegunbuilder, rkolling, SC381, sheiskell, shootsInPink, SSC, StormRhydr, Sweetcorn, The Sequel, thefenux, Troutbum2, Undrcoverrednek, Widgeonus, woodcock1, Yahoo [Bot], z28b


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group     -  DMCA Notice