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 Post subject: .410 turkey loads lab results
PostPosted: Fri Dec 18, 2009 6:44 pm 
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I sent my 3/4 oz. 18g/cc .410 turkey loads off to get them tested, and they came back in real good shape at 1066 fps and 11850 psi.

Here's what the 40 yard (10" and 20" circles) pattern, through a Rem 1100, 27" barrel and X-full Briley choke looks like:

Image

They actually put up a better pattern (with more penetration energy) than a typical 12 gauge 3" load of lead #4s.

I'm tempted to retire my 12 gauge turkey gun...


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 Post subject: Re: .410 turkey loads lab results
PostPosted: Fri Dec 18, 2009 8:55 pm 
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Awesome, what gun where you using? What choke did it have? What size shot it that? Are you using standard wads or special wad?

Give that your at only 11850psi (as you very likely know 3 inch 410 has a SAAMI spec of 13500psi) you could push the velocity up a little bit more if you wanted, assuming it would not hurt your pattern.

Very cool
mcb

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 Post subject: Re: .410 turkey loads lab results
PostPosted: Fri Dec 18, 2009 9:05 pm 
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Here in Kansas 20 gauge is the smallest shotgun you can legally take turkey with. I wish we could shoot something smaller.


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 Post subject: Re: .410 turkey loads lab results
PostPosted: Sat Dec 19, 2009 10:33 am 
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mcbirch wrote:
Awesome, what gun where you using? What choke did it have? What size shot it that? Are you using standard wads or special wad?

Give that your at only 11850psi (as you very likely know 3 inch 410 has a SAAMI spec of 13500psi) you could push the velocity up a little bit more if you wanted, assuming it would not hurt your pattern.

Very cool
mcb


The gun is a Rem 1100 sporting clays gun with 27" barrel, and a Briley's X-full choke. I shot some in an NEF youth single shot .410 with 20" barrel, and got patterns not much worse than what a 12 gauge load of lead 4s will typically get at 40 yds.

The key to these shells is the shot. It's 18g/cc #9s, which at 1150fps will penetrate better than lead #4s at over 1200fps. So, I'm not really needing it any faster, since the shot already has more than enough bone punching penetration as far as my pattern will hold up. I may up the powder charge a bit and see how the patterns look just for the sake of optimization.

I'm using standard target wads and extra barrel protection.


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 Post subject: Re: .410 turkey loads lab results
PostPosted: Sun Dec 20, 2009 11:49 am 
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hawglips wrote:
The key to these shells is the shot. It's 18g/cc #9s, which at 1150fps will penetrate better than lead #4s at over 1200fps.


Off hand, I tend to question that. If I recall correctly, lead is somewhere around 11g/cc, and a # 4 pellet has about 4 times the volume of a #9. In effect, what you are saying is that the smaller, lighter (less mass) #9 pellet traveling slower will penetrate more than the heavier. faster #4? I realize that there are other factors in penetration than just KE, but what am I missing?

Frank

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 Post subject: Re: .410 turkey loads lab results
PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 5:02 pm 
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Frank Lopez wrote:
hawglips wrote:
The key to these shells is the shot. It's 18g/cc #9s, which at 1150fps will penetrate better than lead #4s at over 1200fps.


Off hand, I tend to question that. If I recall correctly, lead is somewhere around 11g/cc, and a # 4 pellet has about 4 times the volume of a #9. In effect, what you are saying is that the smaller, lighter (less mass) #9 pellet traveling slower will penetrate more than the heavier. faster #4? I realize that there are other factors in penetration than just KE, but what am I missing?
Frank


Frank,

I think the term they use to measure that is "energy density." When I first started developing the 18g/cc turkey loads, I set out to test and compare the ability of the shot to penetrate material that would be at least as hard as bone. I picked various loads that included lead, hevishot, hevi-13, 15g/cc, and 18g/cc shot, and shot them at the test material (roofing sheet metal) at 40 yds. I just counted the ratio of pellets that penetrated the sheet metal.

It was an eye opener. This is what I found in a nutshell.

Lead (11g/cc) in copper plated lead #4s, at over 1200fps, penetrates poorer than 18g/cc 9s at slower speeds, poorer than 13g/cc #6s at 1090fps, and poorer than 12g/cc hevishot 7s at 1200+ (as measured by the percentage of pellets that punched through, or partially broke through the sheet metal).

Here's what the penetration of each one looks like, at 40 yds.:

copper plated lead 4s
Image

hevi-13 6s
Image

hevishot 7s
Image

18g/cc 9s
Image

And a load of 18g/cc 9x8s at the same slower speed penetrates (pellet ratio) at 60 yds, about like lead 4s do at 40 yds.


18g/cc 9x8s at 60 yds
Image


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 Post subject: Re: .410 turkey loads lab results
PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 7:50 pm 
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And folks thought Ole Bill Hanus was crazy for promoting the High Velocity #9's for Pheasants and myself for conducting the test !!!!!!!!!!!


Keep on Keeping on !


Regards , Charles


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 Post subject: Re: .410 turkey loads lab results
PostPosted: Wed Dec 23, 2009 1:07 am 
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Sorry, Charles, but a lot of us still think so! High velocity may buy you a few yards with number 9 lead shot, but not all that much. And certainly nothing that couldn't be accomplished better by using heavier shot. The problem with your tests is that we only know about the ones that you got, not the ones that kept on flying with lead in them. Put another way, at 40 yards with high velocity number 9 shot, your effective pattern shrinks way down because you are dependant on hitting soft vitals like the head and neck. Since the area of these vitals is only a couple of square inches, the likelyhood of a pellet strike, even with #9 shot is severely reduced. This is further complicated by the protection by the rest of the birds body due to the angle of the shot almost always being one going away from the shooter. This is not to say that killing pheasants with high velocity #9 shot cannot be done. It just cannot be relied on to kill ethically with statistical reliability.

Besides, what is being discussed here is about like comparing apples to oranges.

Hawglips, I can see that the results of your tests are quite impressive. I believe that the added mass is a contributing factor. I would also venture a guess that the down range retained velocity of your 18gm/cc #9 shot is probably much greater that the down range retained velocity of the #4 lead shot due to superior ballistics coefficients.



Frank

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 Post subject: Re: .410 turkey loads lab results
PostPosted: Wed Dec 23, 2009 2:06 pm 
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18g/cc #9 shot? What material is that shot made of? Pure lead is only 11.35g/cc. I am assuming some tungsten alloy of some type. Can you give us more detail on the shot?

That increased density would explain the better penetration despite the smaller diameter pellets. Not only do you have better sectional density giving you a better ballistic coefficient you also have a harder projectile and both features would help penetration and pattern integrity.

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 Post subject: Re: .410 turkey loads lab results
PostPosted: Wed Dec 23, 2009 8:12 pm 
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Merry Xmas Frank :

Yeh I think its crazy too , but please dont tell the birds , they dont know the difference .
If you get bored you might just look up the NILO FARMS TEST and read about the thousands of Ducks that were shot with #9's and what was said about them , Bill Hanus told me to ask Mike Jordan the next time I seen him and boy did I get a real education for Olin has a heap more money in those test than I have in all my 70+ trips to the Dakota's shooting limits of Pheasants and Sharptail .

Regards Charles


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 Post subject: Re: .410 turkey loads lab results
PostPosted: Thu Dec 24, 2009 11:05 am 
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Frank Lopez wrote:
Hawglips, I can see that the results of your tests are quite impressive. I believe that the added mass is a contributing factor. I would also venture a guess that the down range retained velocity of your 18gm/cc #9 shot is probably much greater that the down range retained velocity of the #4 lead shot due to superior ballistics coefficients.
Frank


Frank, I suspect you are correct on the downrange velocity.


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 Post subject: Re: .410 turkey loads lab results
PostPosted: Thu Dec 24, 2009 11:08 am 
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mcbirch wrote:
18g/cc #9 shot? What material is that shot made of? Pure lead is only 11.35g/cc. I am assuming some tungsten alloy of some type. Can you give us more detail on the shot?

That increased density would explain the better penetration despite the smaller diameter pellets. Not only do you have better sectional density giving you a better ballistic coefficient you also have a harder projectile and both features would help penetration and pattern integrity.


It's a tungsten alloy. #9s come to approximately 340 pellets per ounce. I use it in all my turkey loads, regardless of gauge.

Here's a website that sells it in larger sizes, and explains what makes it tick.

http://www.tungstensupershot.com/index.asp


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 Post subject: Re: .410 turkey loads lab results
PostPosted: Mon Dec 28, 2009 1:00 am 
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This is very cool. I once read in either OL or FS a sphere launched at higher speed loses energy quicker than the same size, slower sphere. The same article reported the Britains laugh at us because their polite "square loads" have more energy at 40yds than our hellfire shells. Basically, we in the New Country are kicking ourselves to death for no good reason. I'm thinking this was written by Jim Carmichel; a man of which I have much respect.

It's also documented a .220 Swift/.22-250 Rem will punch a hole through steel which will splatter a .308 bullet.

Great thread!


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 Post subject: Re: .410 turkey loads lab results
PostPosted: Mon Dec 28, 2009 6:04 pm 
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Ballistics are a little more complicated than that.


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 Post subject: Re: .410 turkey loads lab results
PostPosted: Tue Dec 29, 2009 2:40 am 
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Sure they are. I'm not a ballistician or physicist. Where is this off base and how far? I mean, damn it, here's pictures of holes and dents.


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 Post subject: Re: .410 turkey loads lab results
PostPosted: Wed Dec 30, 2009 11:30 am 
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Oddgauge wrote:
Ballistics are a little more complicated than that.


For my purposes with this load (turkey hunting) I was only concerned with being able to measure pattern density and penetration. Since pattern density and penetration can be simply measured and compared, I don't think there is any need to make it any more complicated than the end pattern/penetration results. I think I have achieved my goal of a bonafide 40 yard .410 turkey shell.

I did need some understanding of "why" during the process of coming up with the load, but really, only in relation to other existing shot and shells.


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