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 Post subject: Rem 32, K32, K80, and the 3200 history
PostPosted: Sat Jan 30, 2010 12:28 pm 
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a fellow poster named lowgun challenged me to post this up for clarification.
being im a skeet shooter and that i'd never back down from a challenge, here it is....

which came first and why?

i claim:

*that the remington 32 came first. designed to compete with the new browning superposed, it was expensive to manufacture and the depression gave it a short life.
* after ww2, the marshall act of rebuilding germany allowed remington to sell its failed gun to kreighoff.
* the K32 was created.
* americans longed for a quality o&u. in 1973, remington reintroduced the 3200 based onthe remington 32 design. it was the first amercian gun designed by computer. fast lock time etc...it was a hit.
* it was biting into the k32's sales, so kreighoff designed the K80 to challenge it.
* the K80 was a hit. by 1981, remington could not sell enough of their 3200's, build them cheap enough to compete, or justify further production. in 1981, it was dropped.
* the K32 was even so popular that it continued until 1983.
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lowgun says the k80 came before the 3200.
-----------

if anyone would help me sand the corners and add or modify this info, lowgun and i would appreciate it. thanks.


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 Post subject: Re: Rem 32, K32, K80, and the 3200 history
PostPosted: Sat Jan 30, 2010 2:17 pm 
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It is my understanding that the "80" from the K80 came from the year it started 1980. The Remington Model 32 started in 1932 and the 3200 started in 1973 my Dad has the Remington 1973 catalog that introduced it. He has his receipt for his 3200 special trap from 1974 for $540. The 3200 is a great gun but has some issues like the firing pin holes and forearm breakage. I have owned numerous 3200's and 2 Remington Model 32's and all have been sold. I had problems with all of the 3200's and none with the 2 32's. I wish I could afford a K80. They all have split bbls and the sliding breech cover which I find attractive on a shotgun.
I must agree with bobski.
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 Post subject: Re: Rem 32, K32, K80, and the 3200 history
PostPosted: Sat Jan 30, 2010 2:23 pm 
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bobski wrote:
a fellow poster named lowgun challenged me to post this up for clarification.
being im a skeet shooter and that i'd never back down from a challenge, here it is....

which came first and why?

i claim:

*that the remington 32 came first. designed to compete with the new browning superposed, it was expensive to manufacture and the depression gave it a short life..


That's correct. I'm not sure about the direct competition with the Superposed, but other than that, you're correct.

bobski wrote:
* after ww2, the marshall act of rebuilding germany allowed remington to sell its failed gun to kreighoff.


Not exactly. First, the M-32 was hardly a "failed gun". It was a great success, and was considered so even in its day. Does the fact that Duesenberg didn't make a lot of cars relegate it to "failed" status too? Further, Remington sold the rights to the M-32 to Hal Dupont et al in the mid 1950s, and they in turn shopped the design to Krieghoff-- the K-32 was born.

bobski wrote:
* americans longed for a quality o&u. in 1973, remington reintroduced the 3200 based on the remington 32 design. it was the first amercian gun designed by computer. fast lock time etc...it was a hit.


Not even close. For starters, there were plenty of quality O/U’s on the market in the early 70’s. No one was “longing” for one, as they had a bunch of choices. Remington didn’t have one in the line, so they added the 3200. Remington took the look of the split barrels and the sliding hood latch, but those are only cosmetic, and are the only things that look like a 32. There’s no “based on” in the equasion. I don’t know about the computer design part—this is the first time I’ve read that.

bobski wrote:
* it was biting into the k32's sales, so kreighoff designed the K80 to challenge it. .


Nope. The folks at Kreighoff redesigned the trigger and a few other small things—that’s really the only difference between the K-32 and the K-80. The two didn’t compete at the same price point… it would be like saying that Toyota is cutting into Mercedes sales.

bobski wrote:
* the K80 was a hit. by 1981, remington could not sell enough of their 3200's, build them cheap enough to compete, or justify further production. in 1981, it was dropped. .


The K-80 isn’t a “big hit” by gun sales standards even today… production in 1980 (when the gun was first introduced) and the several years that followed was only about 500 guns a YEAR. Remington made 40-something thousand 3200’s in six years. For the price of the K-80, one could have put several 3200’s in the safe… they just weren’t direct competitors. What killed the 3200 was the lifetime warranty that was offered… target shooters were wearing the guns out, and Remington’s warranty was costing them a fortune. Add to that the serious flaws in the receiver design and the foreend, and it was a death knell.

bobski wrote:
* the K32 was even so popular that it continued until 1983. .


My understanding is that there were a lot of leftover parts for the k-32 that were still hanging around after the K-80 was released, so they continued production of the K-32 until those parts were all gone. I’ve never seen a definitive reference on that point, so maybe someone can confirm or correct that point.

-----------
bobski wrote:
owgun says the k80 came before the 3200. .
[/quote]
-----------

He’s right… and he’s wrong. If you trace the direct lineage of the K-80 backwards, it was out for 40 year+ before the first 3200. If you mean a gun badged as a K-80, it came 7 years after the first 3200.


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 Post subject: Re: Rem 32, K32, K80, and the 3200 history
PostPosted: Sat Jan 30, 2010 2:41 pm 
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I would rather not be quoted as saying the K-80 predates the 3200 unless you can give a thread reference because I know that the 3200 predates the K-80 by seven years. Bobski's statement "the reintroduction of the 3200 was in 1973" is not correct. The 3200 was first introduced around 1973. There is no reintroduction of the 3200. The introduction of the K-80 would seem to have no relationship whatever with the 3200. The 3200 was certainly no threat to Krieghoff. In fact, the K-80 doesn't do anything that the K-32 couldn't do. The K-80 just included a few new features and the basic gun is the same as the K-32.


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 Post subject: Re: Rem 32, K32, K80, and the 3200 history
PostPosted: Sat Jan 30, 2010 3:03 pm 
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One more thing... I own both. There's no comparison in terms of quality-- the K-80 is light years ahead of the 3200 in every way, shape and form.


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 Post subject: Re: Rem 32, K32, K80, and the 3200 history
PostPosted: Sat Jan 30, 2010 3:30 pm 
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Location: somewhere east of the I-95 corridor, until you get to connecticut. but you can bank on vanzant, mo..
allow me to clarify. it wasnt lowgun who challenged me to post this thread. it was fnj682's.
sorry lowgun, for any confusion.

also to clarify, i intended to say that remington wanted to reintroduce an O&U to its lineup by popular demand, based on the 32. i agree, it didnt reintroduce the 3200. remington reintroduced an O&U.

wasnt the K80 selling point the hardened steel receiver that is to this day much harder than the K32 and 3200, along with rib width choices, stock choices, etc...? the way i see it, the K80 pulled no punches and won the shooting worlds love with options, bar none save a nice italian gun here and there.

a K80s craftsmanship is by far a point that cant be denied. but somewhere around 73, kreighoff people must have seen remingtons step up to the plate and decided to do something different. hey, its what captializm is all about. remington was pumping out 3200s much faster than the K80 and 32. im sure they were concerned.
its just too coincidental that the k80 came out and the 3200 ended within a year for me to ignore the fact kreighoff must have done something to pull back their market share or interest. since then, remingtons O&U program has ground to a halt and has never been a threat to anyone.

on the r-32 failed gun thing. it was a great gun, but it wasnt marketed correctly and marketing timing was off. they tried to market a perfect gun in a poor economy (depression). i will contest it was a great gun but it was a failed remington venture financially. im sure remington exec's would not hesitate to say it was flop for the company. afterall, if it was worth profit to remington, why was dupont able to buy it so quickly? answer, remington was the king of mass production and 32's were hand made guns. it didnt fit into the future business plans of remington....who saw the writing on the wall for post war semi autos.

i will add to my statement, that remingtons 3200 failed for more than one reason. 1. the K80 killed it and 2. they tried to mass produce a gun that needed to be hand made. and i agree on the warrenty thing.

interesting thought. does kreighoff have a lifetime warrenty?

thanks for everybodies inputs. threads are meant to be informative. i hope it was for many others.


Last edited by bobski on Sat Jan 30, 2010 4:51 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Rem 32, K32, K80, and the 3200 history
PostPosted: Sat Jan 30, 2010 4:16 pm 
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I would have to disagree that the K80 killed the 3200.

I agree with drsfmd, thats saying the Toyota killed the sales of a Mercedes.

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 Post subject: Re: Rem 32, K32, K80, and the 3200 history
PostPosted: Sat Jan 30, 2010 4:41 pm 
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As the very happy owner of a 3200 " One of 1000". Where does it fit in the scheme of things as far as the manufacture of 3200's ? I have been told that all 2000 of the " One of 1000's " were hand made in the Remington custom shop. I value my gun very much but I will honestly admit that could I make the leap to a K 80 I would do so in a heart beat! When I aquired my " 1 of " for all purposes appeared to have never been fired. It is basically all I shoot skeet with today. I have had it for only a short time so it has only seen a few hundred rounds to date. I have been critized for shooting it and was told by a sales person from "Jaques Fine Guns in Findlay, Ohio." that the rounds that I have fired thru it are the most expensive rounds I may ever shot...I think that is pushing things a bit! I guess that if I had a question it would be: is the " One of 1000" better made than the standard production gun? I personally think it is nothing more than some cosmetic icing to create some nostalgia to sell a few more guns for more money?


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 Post subject: Re: Rem 32, K32, K80, and the 3200 history
PostPosted: Sat Jan 30, 2010 4:45 pm 
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Location: somewhere east of the I-95 corridor, until you get to connecticut. but you can bank on vanzant, mo..
only difference the 1 of 1000 is over a standard grade gun is that its marked one of 1000.
same gun same production line. it got engraved and had different checking in the wood. thats it.


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 Post subject: Re: Rem 32, K32, K80, and the 3200 history
PostPosted: Sat Jan 30, 2010 4:58 pm 
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bobski wrote:
a K80s craftsmanship is by far a point that cant be denied. but somewhere around 73, kreighoff people must have seen remingtons step up to the plate and decided to do something different. hey, its what captializm is all about. remington was pumping out 3200s much faster than the K80 and 32, werent they?
its just too coincidental that the k80 came out and the 3200 ended within a year for me to ignore the fact kreighoff must have done something to pull back their market share. since then, remingtons O&U program has ground to a halt and has never been a threat to anyone.


You aren't getting it. The K-80 and the 3200 aren't competitors. Not even close. The Krieghoff offering has always been "upscale". The Remington 3200 was not upscale. It's a good gun, but your supposition is that Krieghoff was even paying attention to what Remington was doing, when they most certainly weren't. The may have been concerned about the offerings from Perazzi. Remington was primarily competing with Browning, Winchester, and SKB.

bobski wrote:
on the failed gun thing. it was a great gun, but it wasnt marketed correctly and marketing timing was off. they tried to market a perfect gun in a poor economy (depression). i will contest it was a great gun but it was a failed remington venture financially. im sure remington exec's would not hesitate to say it was flop for the company. afterall, if it was worth profit to remington, why was dupont able to buy it so quickly? answer, remington was the king of mass production and 32's were hand made guns. it didnt fit into the future business plans of remington....who saw the writing on the wall for post war semi autos.


Some things aren’t done for profit, they are done for prestige and for a company to simply prove that they can. The M-32 was introduced mid depression, and stayed in production until the intervention of WWII brought most civilian gun manufacture to a halt after a bit more than 5000 guns were produced*. While I agree that it would have sold better in different economic times, they made more M-32’s in 9 years that Krieghoff made K-80’s in the first 10 years of production, yet you herald the K-80 as a great success and give it credit for killing the 3200... doesn't pass the smell test! As far as Dupont buying it… the gun had been out of production for more than a decade before Remington sold the rights (I’d love to know how much they got for it)


bobski wrote:
i will add to my statement, that remingtons 3200 failed for more than one reason. 1. the K80 killed it and 2. they tried to mass produce a gun that needed to be hand made. any takers?


#1 is absolutely incorrect. Again, the people who bought Krieghoff’s could have purchased a safe full of 3200’s for the same price. They were not competitors in anything other than the point that both sells shotguns. Is the 870 a competitor with the K-80? It’s the same reasoning.

#2 is closer to correct… see my comments above about quality issues. Poor design and a burdensome warranty killed the 3200, coupled with competition from the Citori, the 101 and the SKB offerings.


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 Post subject: Re: Rem 32, K32, K80, and the 3200 history
PostPosted: Sat Jan 30, 2010 7:16 pm 
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The secret of the K-80s success lies in part in its unique history and design. In the early 1950s a group of American and German shotgunning enthusiasts acquired the rights to the discontinued Remington Model 32 and went to Europe in search of a gunmakker. The Model 32’s design was one of the most innovative in American gunmaking history. It had a devoted following since its introduction in 1932 and enjoyed an excellent reputation, but it was viewed as obsolete in the “modern” world of mass produced autoloaders and pump action shotguns.



When the master gunmakers at the firm of H. Krieghoff, in Ulm, Germany, were invited to study the blueprints and consider making the gun, they immediately recognized the unique properties that summed up its potential: a sliding top latch that provided both extremely strong lock-up and easy interchangeability of barrels; a sturdy steel receiver capable of withstanding hundreds of thousands of rounds; and an intriguing though rudimentary trigger system that showed promise.



H. Krieghoff, which was founded as Sempert & Krieghoff in 1886, had been producing European hunting guns for more than sixty years, but that market had not yet begun to recover in post-war Germany. The company recognized an opportunity in the emerging American clay target market and made a commitment to produce the Krieghoff Model 32.



In so doing, the firm of H. Krieghoff began a relationship with the American target shooter which continues to this day, and embarked on a course that has seen the development not only of the Model 32 and its successor, the K-80, but also the KX-5 single barrel trap gun as well as the elegant K-20. Krieghoff’s latest offerings include the K-80 Trap Special featuring over and under barrels with adjustable points of impact independent of the upper and lower barrels; and the K-80 Pro-Sport featuring over and under barrels with a slightly higher rib allowing for quick target acquisition as well as a slight point of impact adjustment.



This is what i was told when we traded for my first k-32....

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 Post subject: Re: Rem 32, K32, K80, and the 3200 history
PostPosted: Sat Jan 30, 2010 7:42 pm 
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" Bobski", thanks for the heads up on the real story. WANO


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 Post subject: Re: Rem 32, K32, K80, and the 3200 history
PostPosted: Sat Jan 30, 2010 9:03 pm 
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wano wrote:
" Bobski", thanks for the heads up on the real story. WANO


What "real story" would that be? He was more incorrect than correct...


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 Post subject: Re: Rem 32, K32, K80, and the 3200 history
PostPosted: Sun Jan 31, 2010 7:38 am 
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Need to take a better look at the k-32 to begin with as well.

In the beginning, the K-32 where M-32 produced by Krieghoff . They where straight copies of the rem gun, and used rem parts. At a point, Krieghoff changed the internal design to use Krieghoff design parts instead, and that is the true beginning of the K-32 and K-80 design as we know it.

So, if you have a Krieghoff m-32 (rem parts gun), then although it was built by Krieghoff, it is really just the Remington copy before Krieghoff started doing improvements to the Remington design (read such guns do not upgrade to current upgrades parts with drop in parts since the receiver internals are different).


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 Post subject: Re: Rem 32, K32, K80, and the 3200 history
PostPosted: Sun Jan 31, 2010 10:36 am 
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I recall hearing a story years ago about Kreighoff and Hal duPont. Europa Corp (duPont & co) was the sole licenced importer of K32's. Some sort of disagreement between the two companies emerged resulting in duPont telling Kreighoff "you'll never sell another K32 in the USA". That remark lead to the birth of the K80. The fences were mended shortly thereafter.

It's a typically American story, but is there any truth to it?


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 Post subject: Re: Rem 32, K32, K80, and the 3200 history
PostPosted: Sun Jan 31, 2010 4:23 pm 
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Quote:
It's a typically American story, but is there any truth to it?


I heard something similar from a shooter who once was an industry rep.


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 Post subject: Re: Rem 32, K32, K80, and the 3200 history
PostPosted: Sun Jan 31, 2010 5:17 pm 
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Glenn, I heard something similar, that Hal Dupont along with other investors acquired the rights from Remington and went in search of someone to manufacture the gun and found Krieghoff. Dupont gave Krieghoff the rights to seel the guns in Europe but not the US.

Another discussion about it. http://www.trapshooters.com/cfpages/thread.cfm?threadid=202924&Messages=17

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 Post subject: Re: Rem 32, K32, K80, and the 3200 history
PostPosted: Sun Jan 31, 2010 8:06 pm 
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bobski wrote:
allow me to clarify. it wasnt lowgun who challenged me to post this thread. it was fnj682's. .


I did say that post it up and you will get many takers on you statement. I see that you have.

Krieghoff has had what I call a great marketing tactic on the 32 and the K-80. I don't think that competing with the Remington 3200 was even on their mind.
Krieghoff bought the Remington 32 patent and from day one continued to improve the gun. They have made small continual improvements to the trigger, sears, springs and other parts. At one point in time, the receiver was hardened and the stock was redesigned and the gun was called the K-80.
The great marketing come from the fact that you can send in any 32 or 80 and for a substantial cost they will upgrade to the newest and latest. Just think, with the hardening of the receivers all special engraving will need to be done in house at a pretty good profit from what I can see.


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 Post subject: Re: Rem 32, K32, K80, and the 3200 history
PostPosted: Sun Jan 31, 2010 8:25 pm 
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Glenn-

I heard that story a little differently, the dispute wasn't over the K-32, but over the exclusive use of the Krieghoff name in the US. In turn, Krieghoff branded the first 5 years or so of K-80's as "K-80 Shotguns of Ulm" without the Krieghoff name anywhere on them!


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 Post subject: Re: Rem 32, K32, K80, and the 3200 history
PostPosted: Sun Jan 31, 2010 8:39 pm 
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Great topic, sparked some lively debate. I'm a big Remington fan, and am always trying to learn something new about the brand.

I do think it would be fair to say that while Remington may have used the original M32 as an inspiration for the 3200, the 3200 certainly wasn't based on the M32. And I don't believe Remingtons and Krieghoffs have ever competed against each other for new gun sales. I haven't seen a breakdown of year-by-year production for the 3200, but an informal survey of used guns for sale today suggests the early "2-pin" models were more prevalent. That would also suggest that the 3200 was dropped due to lack of sales at a profitable price point. No one drops a gun that is popular.

The truly absurd postscript is that Remington launched a doomed ad campaign for its (now discontinued) 332 field gun in 2003, attempting to draw a comparison with the original M32 - a gun unknown to most buyers in today's $1300 O/U market. Remington would have been better off simply admitting - "Hey, here's the new 332. We fixed the problems from the Peerless, and dropped the price from the 396 and 300 Ideal."


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