CalendarCalendar   Photos  * FAQ
It is currently Sat Nov 01, 2014 4:45 am

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 9 posts ] 
Author Message
 Post subject: Washington Arms Co. 12 ga.
PostPosted: Fri Feb 19, 2010 9:16 pm 
Utility Grade

Joined: Fri Feb 19, 2010 7:40 pm
Posts: 2
I'm trying to find out when and where this old side by side was made. It has
"Belgium laminated steel " stamped on the barrel and has some proof marks and 6221 MF underneath. I know it is a Crescent Arms Co. Trade name gun, but what I want to know is was it mfg. by Crescent or imported? and what does Belgium Laminated Steel mean?




Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Washington Arms Co. 12 ga.
PostPosted: Sat Feb 20, 2010 12:33 am 
Crown Grade

Joined: Wed Dec 24, 2008 10:42 pm
Posts: 3676
The gun is of course a "Trade Brand Name" shotgun which is one made by a major maker (Crescent in this case) and sold by a wholesaler or retailer who chose the name to go on the gun (and this H & D Folsome as far as I can find out). However it may be a Belgian gun imported by Folsome. . Break gun the down into its three basic parts, receiver/butt stock, forearm and barrels. Look on the bottom of the barrels at the breech end for Belgian proof marks which consist of the letters "ELG" in an oval with a crown over that. American made guns will have no proof marks. Belgian Laminated Steel is just another name for damascus barrels. If you don't know what those are, please ask. Let us know if you find the proof marks.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Washington Arms Co. 12 ga.
PostPosted: Sat Feb 20, 2010 12:37 am 
Tournament Grade
User avatar

Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2005 2:27 pm
Posts: 274
Location: CANADA
Below is an excerpt from here That covers "laminated barrels", in your case barrels manufactured in Belgium. Many Belgian barrels were imported and used by many different gun makers in many different countries. The linked article also discusses Crescent, which was very prolific arms maker that supplied many outlets that were sellers, not makers. Crescent would have imported the barrels and made the action and stocks and assembled it all into a gun. Not unlike auto manufacturing these days where there are many suppliers of parts that once assembled become a car. Washington Arms not mentioned in that link but mentioned here. The excerpt is below the laminated barrels info. Cheers,
Jack

From roughly 1880 to 1930, there were several manufacturers and importers in this country that supplied double-barreled shotguns to anyone who would order them. They not only made them under their own name, but for dozens and dozens of hardware wholesalers, hardware stores, mail- order catalogs, sporting goods stores and many other retail and wholesale gun dealers, each engraved or stamped with their individual trade name or names. Add to this various grades, and suddenly there are vast numbers of essentially the same shotgun, all with different names engraved on them. Made largely with Damascus, twist or laminated-steel barrels, virtually none are safe to shoot as they are.

Damascus or twist-steel barrels are made by layering alternate strips of steel and iron then welding them together. The strips are then twisted until they resembled a screw, three of these wound strips are then welded together, wound around a steel mandrel, then welded and hammered into a barrel tube. Laminated steel barrels are a bit different. They start with a ball of steel and iron that is then hammered into long strips and twisted, then, like their Damascus cousin, wound around a mandrel, welded and hammered into a barrel tube. Inherently, these barrels are quite strong, and many best-quality Damascus barrels pass nitro proof. However, because of the iron content and welded manufacture, twist barrels have a propensity for rusting within the barrel material. Added to that is the fact that these guns were primarily used with non-corrosive priming, and are therefore potentially honeycombed with weak spots. While there are first-quality Damascus Parker and Purdey barrels that can be shot with modern ammunition, most if not all are not up to the task.

Washington Arms Co was a trade name, used by Crescent Arms Co on shotguns made for The Edwrd K Tryon Co of Philadalphia Pa in or around the 1920's. They were commonly called "Hardware Guns", meaning mfg's and in particular Cescent, mfg'd guns for just about anyone who wanted their name on a gun.

_________________
Hunt Ethically - Eat Heartily


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Washington Arms Co. 12 ga.
PostPosted: Sat Feb 20, 2010 8:38 am 
Diamond Grade
User avatar

Joined: Sun Apr 30, 2006 11:16 pm
Posts: 1325
Location: Glendale, AZ
Lower grade Belgian guns with Twist barrels were routinely marked 'Laminated Steel'
This is a "W. Richards"

Image

A "T. Barker" with "Daminated Steel" :shock:

Image

_________________
http://sites.google.com/a/damascusknowl ... m/www/home

Put your trust in God; but mind to keep your powder dry! Oliver Cromwell


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Washington Arms Co. 12 ga.
PostPosted: Sat Feb 20, 2010 4:18 pm 
Utility Grade

Joined: Fri Feb 19, 2010 7:40 pm
Posts: 2
Thanks everyone for the information you provided, it was very helpful.

Ned, I checked the underside of the barrel and there I found the ELG in an oval with a crown above it. There were many other markings as well. I found a web page with Belgium proof marks, and this one is definitely Belgium made. I could not find anything which looked like a serial number, but stamped on the reciever was 6221 MF, that same number was stamped underneath the barrel about an inch from the muzzle.

Is there anyway to tell when the gun was made? If not what is your best guess.

Thanks for you help,


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Washington Arms Co. 12 ga.
PostPosted: Sat Feb 20, 2010 5:27 pm 
Tournament Grade
User avatar

Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2005 2:27 pm
Posts: 274
Location: CANADA
Found this here Prolific is definitely an appropriate descriptor. I wonder (don't know) if MF refers to the chokes Modified and Full.

Crescent Firearms Company

Starting around 1892 Crescent firearms manufactured single and double barrel shotguns under a variety of names. These firearms which are sometime called "Hardware Guns" are considered to be the most prolific of all manufacturers of private label guns. Followed is a list of names manufactured by Crescent Firearms:

American Bar Lock Wonder
American Boy
American Gun Co.
American Nitro
Armory Gun Co.
Baker Gun Co. (If no proof marks.)
Baklmann Hardware Co.
Barker Gun Co.
Bartlett & Co.
Bellmore Gun Co.
Berkshire No. 3000
Black Beauty
Bluefield Clipper
Bluegrass Arms Co.
Blue Whistler
Bridge Black Prince
Bridge Gun Co.
Bridge Gun Works
Bridgeport Arms Co. (If no proof marks.)
Bright Arms Co.
C.G. Bonehill
C.W. Franklin
Canadian Belle
Carolina Arms Co.
Caroline Arms
Central Arms Co.
Charles Richter
Chatham Arms Co.
Cherokee Arms Co.
Chesapeake Gun Co.
Chicago Long Range Wonder
Colonial
Columbian New York Arms Co.
Compeer
Connecticut Arms Co.
Cumberland Arms Co.
Creve Cour (If no proof marks.)
Cruso
Daniel Boone Gun Co.
Delphian Arms Co. (If no proof marks.)
Delphian Manufacturing Co. (If no proof marks.)
Diamond Arms Co.
Dunlap Special
E.C. Mac
Elgin Arms Co.
Elmira Arms Co.
Empire Arms Co.
Empire State Arms Co.
Enders Oakleaf
Enders Special Service
Enders Royal Service
Essex
Excel
Farwell Arms Co.
Faultless
Faultless Goose Gun
Folsom Arms Co.
F.F. Forbes
Fort Pit Arms Co.
Fremont Arms Co.
Gold Medal Wonder
Greenfield
H.B.C.
H.S.B. & Co.
Hanover Arms Co. (If no proof marks.)
Harrison Arms Co.
Hartford Arms.Co.
Harvard
Hermitage
Hip Spe Bar
Hibbard
Howard Arms Co.
Hudson
Hunter
Interstate Arms Co.
Jackson Arms Co.
J.H. Lau & Co.
J. Manton & Co.
John L Smythe & Co.
Joseph Arms Co.
K K
Keen Kutter
Kingsland Special
Kingsland 10 Star
Kirk Gun Co.
Knickerbocker
Knockabout
Knoxall
Laclede Gun Co.
Lakeside
Leader Gun Co.
Lee's Special
Lee's Munner Special
Long Range Marvel
Long Range Winner
Long Range Wonder
Marshwood
Massachusetts Arms Co.
Metal & Hardware Co.
Mears (If no proof marks.)
Metropolitan
Minnesota Arms Co.
Mississippi Arms Co.
Mississippi Valley Arms Co.
Mohawk
Monitor
M.T. Vernon Arms Co.
National Arms Co. (If no proof marks.)
New Britain Arms Co.
New Elgin Arms Co.
New Empire
New England
New England Arms Co.
Newport (model CN)
Newport (model WN)
New Rival
New York Arms Co.
New York Machine Made
New York Match Gun
New York Nitro Hammerless
Nitro Bird
Nitro Hunter
Nitro King
Norwich
Not-Noc Manufacturing Co.
Osprey
Oxford
Peerless
Perfection
Piedmont
Piedmont Arms Co.
Pioneer Arms (If no proof marks.)
Quail
Queen City
R. Murdock National Firearms Co.
Red Chieftan
Baklmann Hardware Co.
Rev-O-Noc
Rich-Con
Richmond Hardware Co.
Rickard Arms Co.
Rival
Rocket Special
Royal Service
Rummel Arms Co.
Ruso (If no proof marks.)
S.H. Harrington (If no proof marks.)
St. Louis Arms Co.
Seminole
Shue's Special
Sickels Arms Co.
Smithsonian
Southern Arms Co.
Special Service
Spencer Gun Co.
Sportsman
Square Deal
Stanley
Star Leader
State Arms Co.
Sterling Arms Co.
Sullivan Arms Co.
Superior
Syco
T. Barker New York (If a sidelock hammerless double without proof marks)
Ten Star (If no proof marks.)
Ten Star Heavy Duty (If no proof marks.)
Tiger (If no proof marks.)
Townley's Pal
Townley's American Boy
Trap's Best Made
Triumph
Tryon Special
U.S. Arms Co. (If no proof marks.)
U.S. Field
Victor & Victor Special
Virginia Arms Co.
Volunteer
Vulcan Arms Co.
Warren Arms Co. (If no proof marks.)
Washington Arms Co.
Wauregan
Wautauga
W. Richards
Wildwood
Wilkinson Arms Co.
William Moore & Co.
Wilmont Arms Co.
Wilshire Arms Co.
Winfield Arms Co.
Winoca Arms Co.
Witte Hardware Co.
Wolverine Arms Co.
Worthington Arms Co.

_________________
Hunt Ethically - Eat Heartily


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Washington Arms Co. 12 ga.
PostPosted: Sat Feb 20, 2010 5:29 pm 
Diamond Grade
User avatar

Joined: Sun Apr 30, 2006 11:16 pm
Posts: 1325
Location: Glendale, AZ
cronk: please see http://www.picturetrail.com/sfx/album/view/20091267

_________________
http://sites.google.com/a/damascusknowl ... m/www/home

Put your trust in God; but mind to keep your powder dry! Oliver Cromwell


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Washington Arms Co. 12 ga.
PostPosted: Sat Feb 20, 2010 6:21 pm 
Tournament Grade
User avatar

Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2005 2:27 pm
Posts: 274
Location: CANADA
Thanks (again {hs# ) I bookmarked for possible future reference. Earlier, wehad discussed Enos James. I passed on that one eventually, as it had some amateur gunsmithing issues plus very likely honed barrels.

Back to Crescent. Any thoughts on the 6221 MF stampings?

_________________
Hunt Ethically - Eat Heartily


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Washington Arms Co. 12 ga.
PostPosted: Sat Feb 20, 2010 6:32 pm 
Diamond Grade
User avatar

Joined: Sun Apr 30, 2006 11:16 pm
Posts: 1325
Location: Glendale, AZ
Well hi Jack {hs#

Here are 2 more important bookmarks :D Pete Mikalajunas' list of Belgian trademarks
http://damascus-barrels.com/Belgian_Trade_Marks.html

and the littlegun site http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/a% ... e%20gb.htm

The vast majority of the Belgian Crescents were by the big Liege players who did however source barrels and parts from smaller craftsmen so the letters could be from anyone.



_________________
http://sites.google.com/a/damascusknowl ... m/www/home

Put your trust in God; but mind to keep your powder dry! Oliver Cromwell


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 9 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Registered users: Bing [Bot], DayOne, edward1117, Evan1996, Google [Bot], Google Adsense [Bot], Google Feedfetcher, hopper810, Jim Flynn, Kraiza, niner, Old Reliable, pathdoc, pud123, robertakamagoo, tiklop158, ushoot2, woodcock1, Yahoo [Bot]


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group     -  DMCA Notice