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 Post subject: Remington Gun Club Question
PostPosted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 2:00 pm 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Sun May 03, 2009 7:18 am
Posts: 110
I see Dicks has Gun Clubs on sale
Finale price is 4.98 after mail in rebate
I was thinking about using some of them at registered shoots
Does anyone know about the lead used in them?


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 Post subject: Re: Remington Gun Club Question
PostPosted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 3:58 pm 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Sat Apr 04, 2009 11:51 am
Posts: 161
I don't know about the lead in them but i used to shoot them until i started to reload my own....they are very good shells to reload and i like shooting the factory loads too.

Lucky


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 Post subject: Re: Remington Gun Club Question
PostPosted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 4:03 pm 
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Location: Creston, Iowa
jsa....For me, the gun clubs were the poorest performing promo ammo. I shot over 80 flats of them, mostly singles and doubles. I purchased GC to have loadable cases and found that they stretch every time I reloaded them. Something not acceptable on a Dillion press with a swing-out wad guide, but would be OK for a Mec type press.

Had several primers set too deep for the firing pins on several guns. This was on new shells. Experienced a reduction in averages, but that may not have been GC related, as much as switching guns. There are more happy users out there than unhappy, but few of the happy campers are 27 yarders using GC for caps. They seemed to have acceptable recoil for load rating. Would guess lower quality shot, but have no test to confirm.

Personally, I now choose Rio or Estates over GC's in promo loads, and at the same time a great fan of NItro27's and STS's. Love the performance of the figure8 wads for reloading. A Remington fan on everything but Gun Club ammo.

Maltzie

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 Post subject: Re: Remington Gun Club Question
PostPosted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 4:31 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 9:17 pm
Posts: 2040
Location: Land of Oz
You can bet the shot in GC is not equal to the shot in the Remington STS loads, but for that price I'd buy about 10 flats to use in practice and on the 16 in competition; just about any load will crush singles (and the first shot in doubles) from the 16.

Keep in mind, jsa, that many trapshooters rate the performance of the shells they buy, in large part, in how well they reload...not just in how they break targets. That may or may not be a factor for you.


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 Post subject: Re: Remington Gun Club Question
PostPosted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 5:33 pm 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Sun May 03, 2009 7:18 am
Posts: 110
mudpack wrote:
You can bet the shot in GC is not equal to the shot in the Remington STS loads, but for that price I'd buy about 10 flats to use in practice and on the 16 in competition; just about any load will crush singles (and the first shot in doubles) from the 16.

Keep in mind, jsa, that many trapshooters rate the performance of the shells they buy, in large part, in how well they reload...not just in how they break targets. That may or may not be a factor for you.



I have no interest in how they reload they wopuld go on the ground when I am done
I only reload Remington STS ,Federal paper and old Winchester red and silver
The Gun Clubs don,t seem to work well in the Spolar for some reason

Thanks for your help


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 Post subject: Re: Remington Gun Club Question
PostPosted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 10:33 pm 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Tue May 19, 2009 6:57 pm
Posts: 1929
Quote:
You can bet the shot in GC is not equal to the shot in the Remington STS loads


Do yourself a favor. Calculate the cost difference per box of shells using 3% antimony and 5% antimony. Now pretend you are the lead shot buyer for Remington. Now imagine that you have to explain to the shotshell production manager that he needs to inventory a gillion tons of both and stop the production line, clean out the shot hoppers of one to switch over to the other.

Yep, they use the same hardness of shot in both because there is no significant cost difference to be realized in changing.


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 Post subject: Re: Remington Gun Club Question
PostPosted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 9:00 am 
Crown Grade

Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 9:17 pm
Posts: 2040
Location: Land of Oz
Jim Tyner wrote:
they use the same hardness of shot in both ...

If this is true (and I don't believe it is), then tell us why we pay almost twice as much for a box of STS as we do for a box of Gun Club or Sport Loads.


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 Post subject: Re: Remington Gun Club Question
PostPosted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 10:21 am 
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I know Federal has separate facilities to manufacture premier gold metal and hunting loads and the Estate plant in a different community to load promo shells. A few years ago the Estate plant was in Mexico, now its in MinidamsOta. I don't know if this is a similar case for Remington, but my guess is, it is separate by management and marketing. Why wouldn't a manufacturer do the same thing we do as reloaders. If we want to cut our load cost we buy Puruvian made shot, cheaper powder and copy-wads. We also buy in larger quanity per acquisition.

Maltzie

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 Post subject: Re: Remington Gun Club Question
PostPosted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 11:07 am 
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Joined: Thu Nov 09, 2006 1:46 pm
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Location: New York
I use Gun Club shell and had no problem. I like the empty hulls for reloading. They load up great.

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 Post subject: Re: Remington Gun Club Question
PostPosted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 5:29 pm 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Tue May 19, 2009 6:57 pm
Posts: 1929
Quote:
then tell us why we pay almost twice as much for a box of STS as we do for a box of Gun Club or Sport Loads



Well, antimony is about $3.00 per pound and 1% of $3.00 is 3 cents. So, if you have two pounds of shot, one with 3% antimony and the other with 5% antimony, then the 5% antimony shot has all of 6 cents more antimony in it or a box of shells would cost about 9 to 12 cents more per box.

So the question is, is the cost of inventoring two hardnesses of shot in several shot sizes and changing out production lines cheaper than just buying a single grade of shot?

For your next exercise, go read what the % of antimony is listed on a box of Gun Clubs and what % is listed on a box of STSs. What, it isn't listed on either? Gee, do you think that if one had more than the other Remington would be touting that?

How about powder? How much more expensive is the powder used in STSs compared to Gun Clubs? Yep, probably less than the difference in antimony. In fact, roll in all the compnent differences anfd you won't come up to much more ONE CENT per shell.

So why are STSs more expensive than Gun Clubs? Because they use thicker,(not more expensive) plastic on the hulls so that some guys will pay a premium to get a hull they can reload several times. Other guys will pay a premium because they are supposedly a "premium" shell. Kinda like buying a Chevy with the Caddy emblem or a Toyota with a Lexus emblem.

I would bet that 95% of the guys shooting STSs have never even patterned them against Gun Clubs in their guns. What do you think?


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 Post subject: Re: Remington Gun Club Question
PostPosted: Wed Mar 03, 2010 9:43 am 
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Joined: Wed Feb 17, 2010 9:51 am
Posts: 1670
Tyner wrote

I would bet that 95% of the guys shooting STSs have never even patterned them against Gun Clubs in their guns. What do you think?

I am always amazed how few trap shooters EVER pattern their gun let alone compare the patterns of various shells. At our trap club less than 5% do anything on patterning. Jim Tyner is right in his statement.
DDF


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 Post subject: Re: Remington Gun Club Question
PostPosted: Wed Mar 03, 2010 10:30 am 
Gunsmith
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Joined: Sun Oct 28, 2007 4:38 pm
Posts: 587
Location: pima county, Az
Did you know I have complete faith in gun, while I know I am the weak link!

My highest scores in handicap, first with Estates, then STS's.

my first 100 striaght, with 7/8's oz reloads the second with Gunclubs

I know what "I" did wrong as soon as I pull the trigger, in my first hundred straight I know I should have missed 3 birds, Mistakes where somehow a chip came off those birds.

The second 100 STR. There was one weak hit that I almost pulled off the bird but the other 99 it felt like the gun was doing the driving and I was just along for the ride.

So to stay with the thread, I will shoot gunclubs knowing they will get the job done.

and to answer the pattern question, "WHY, Should I merk up the waters in mind, by adding extra info that I have done well without, when I can see my mistakes as they happen?" If I had a gun that had me completely baffled as do why I was missing or hitting, while it seemed to fit and look right, I am more likely to send it packing then pattern it, because in the head game of trap the less thinking while more effort is put into seeing the bird the more successful I am. So to me patterning equals thinking, while well placed faith and concentration equals success! For this duck that likes to swim against the crowd, 95% doing what I do, I might have to change, but then again having so many people telling me they have shot the same gun I do with good success but I so far have not seen another at a TRAP shoot, why change a thing?

_________________
Al

My dad started teaching me how to work on guns at an early age, so I now have more then 4 decades. rebluing is my base skill, repair is my joy.

I thank the Good Lord for My Abilities and my dad for the opportunity.


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 Post subject: Re: Remington Gun Club Question
PostPosted: Wed Mar 03, 2010 2:40 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 9:17 pm
Posts: 2040
Location: Land of Oz
Jim,
If you are still trying to convince me that the shot in Remington STS shells is the same shot that is in Remington Gun Clubs, it's not working. :wink:


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 Post subject: Re: Remington Gun Club Question
PostPosted: Wed Mar 03, 2010 4:46 pm 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Tue May 19, 2009 6:57 pm
Posts: 1929
Mudpack, I know I can't convince you and I really don't want to in that the geometrically larger profit margins that ammo makers make on their "premium" ammo allows them to sell their promo loads at a very thin margin which allows me to shoot more for less, get better and beat all those guys shooting premium ammo poorly. TaDah. :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Remington Gun Club Question
PostPosted: Wed Mar 03, 2010 9:36 pm 
Field Grade

Joined: Mon Apr 28, 2008 6:35 pm
Posts: 76
In a reply to JSA question, I have done hardness test with Gun Clubs vs. STS lead, and found no difference. Hulls seam to be the same. In fact I get more reloads out of a Gun Club hull, than I do a STS. The only significant difference I can find is the powder. The Gun Clubs have a compacted flake powder, and the ST'S, and Nitros 27's have a compacted ball powder. Primers are the same. Wads are the same, depending on the velocity of the shell.


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 Post subject: Re: Remington Gun Club Question
PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2010 3:15 pm 
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Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 9:17 pm
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Location: Land of Oz
Well, shut my mouth; Jim Tyner is RIGHT, and I am wrong!
I just talked to Bill at Remington's ammunition plant and he told me why STS/Nitro 27 loads retail for more than Gun Clubs:

1. The virgin metallized green plastic in the STS is more costly than the reground plastic used in GC's.
2. GC's use a less costly steel head rather than the more costly brass heads used in the STS.
3. GC's use a steel primer cup, STS use a brass primer cup. (otherwise, the primers are the same)
4. Quality control is more stringent in the STS; GC's have a greater allowable shot-to-shot velocity variance.
5. Both loads use the same wad.
6. Both loads use the same shot!!!!
7. While he didn't come right out and say it, his references to the "loss leader" GC's and low price to "increase market share" also infers that Remington realizes a lower profit on the Gun Clubs, too.

My apologies to you, Jim, for being such a skeptic, you were right all along.


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 Post subject: Re: Remington Gun Club Question
PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2010 3:43 pm 
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Ok.. assuming all of the above is true, does the STS loads do anything better when it comes to factory loads and breaking birds?

I assume and expect that the hulls are some what better for reloading, but does that justify the 35%-40% increase in price?

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 Post subject: Re: Remington Gun Club Question
PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2010 3:53 pm 
Limited Edition

Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2010 7:48 pm
Posts: 318
Mudpack-- Great info on the Gun Clubs and STS. Did the guy at Remington talk about the powders being different?


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 Post subject: Re: Remington Gun Club Question
PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2010 4:53 pm 
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Joined: Wed Feb 17, 2010 9:51 am
Posts: 1670
Mudpack.
Takes a good man to admit he was wrong, good job. {hs# Who would have guessed the Beaver was right, Tyner is getting dang sharp in his old age. :lol:
DDF


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 Post subject: Re: Remington Gun Club Question
PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2010 5:03 pm 
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Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 9:17 pm
Posts: 2040
Location: Land of Oz
Brownington wrote:
Mudpack-- Great info on the Gun Clubs and STS. Did the guy at Remington talk about the powders being different?

His first comment on powders was that the GC use a "less consistent powder". Now, whether this means the quality of the powder isn't as consistent, or the amount of the powder isn't as consistent I don't know. I should have asked him to go into that a little deeper....


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