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 Post subject: Low pressure 12 gauge load for old 12 side by side
PostPosted: Sun Mar 07, 2010 7:38 am 
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I'm looking for a recommended light, low pressure 1 oz or 1 1/8 oz load for on old 12 gauge exposed hammer double that I picked up. I'm having a gunsmith fix the headspace on it, it has laminated steel barrels so I know I need to be careful what i shoot in this thing. The barrels on sound, I may have to buy factory ammo for the old boomer but that is my last resort...Thanks for any help...mk

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 Post subject: Re: Low pressure 12 gauge load for old 12 side by side
PostPosted: Sun Mar 07, 2010 7:47 am 
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Location: Eastern Pa.
I shoot mostly old sxs's, a few have Stub Twist and some have Good Damascus. Knowing that the wall thickness and the bores or original and not honed out, I reload the Winchester AA, AAHS, Remington STS, Nitro27, and Gun Clubs in low pressure, low velocity loads. If you go to the Hodgdon site and Alliant site, there are plenty of loads in the 7500 psi range and even some lower in 5900 psi range with velocities at 960.
There are also some listings in Lyman's 5th Edition.\

Good luck in shooting you hammer gun.


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 Post subject: Re: Low pressure 12 gauge load for old 12 side by side
PostPosted: Sun Mar 07, 2010 11:30 am 
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Joined: Wed Dec 30, 2009 11:41 pm
Posts: 70
Location: Peoria, Az
I have a 1878 side by side and I am using the following load for mine
Check out:
http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?f=107&t=212617

The loads were in a trimmed down Federal Paper hull (trimmed to 2 - 1/2" pre-crimp)
2 -1/2 drams of 2F Black Powder
2 1/8" Nitro wads on top of the powder, followed by
1 1/2" Lubed wad. then
1oz #8 shot
Overshot card and a roll crimp.

Just remember to clean after shooting.
Check out this site
http://www.tbullock.com/bpsg.html

The clean up is near the bottom of the page

Enjoy your gun


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 Post subject: Re: Low pressure 12 gauge load for old 12 side by side
PostPosted: Sun Mar 07, 2010 4:52 pm 
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Location: Tucson, AZ
David W wrote:
I shoot mostly old sxs's, a few have Stub Twist and some have Good Damascus. Knowing that the wall thickness and the bores or original and not honed out, I reload the Winchester AA, AAHS, Remington STS, Nitro27, and Gun Clubs in low pressure, low velocity loads. If you go to the Hodgdon site and Alliant site, there are plenty of loads in the 7500 psi range and even some lower in 5900 psi range with velocities at 960.
There are also some listings in Lyman's 5th Edition.\
Good luck in shooting you hammer gun.


Me too. Just don't go too low. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Low pressure 12 gauge load for old 12 side by side
PostPosted: Sun Mar 07, 2010 5:57 pm 
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carpe dm,

What's your definition of too low?


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 Post subject: Re: Low pressure 12 gauge load for old 12 side by side
PostPosted: Mon Mar 08, 2010 11:05 am 
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I have concocked some 12ga loads as low as 4000 psi, but I have since read that these might be hazzardous to my health! :) So now I don't go below 5000. I have a number of old Damascus barrel guns that shoot shoot fine in the 5400-6000 range. The is probably no reason to go below these levels. If you are doing it for fear of harming the gun, you should not be shooting that particular arm anyway..... :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: Low pressure 12 gauge load for old 12 side by side
PostPosted: Mon Mar 08, 2010 2:00 pm 
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This is a load that I posted on another thread. Don't know about pressures, but I think it is in the 5-6,000 range. It is a published recipe.

This is one of the lighter reloads to try.

Winchester AA hull.
Winchester AA Lite powder...12 grs.
Claybuster grey wad.
Winchester 209 primer.
7/8 oz. #9 mag shot.
If I remember correctly its about 980 fps.

This is a light low pressure load that I shoot in an old SxS. It will NOT cycle a semi. I've tried an it won't even move the bolt back.

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Last edited by EyeMissum on Mon Mar 08, 2010 7:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Low pressure 12 gauge load for old 12 side by side
PostPosted: Mon Mar 08, 2010 3:21 pm 
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Joined: Sun Nov 13, 2005 10:15 am
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carpe dm wrote:
I have concocked some 12ga loads as low as 4000 psi, but I have since read that these might be hazzardous to my health! :) So now I don't go below 5000. I have a number of old Damascus barrel guns that shoot shoot fine in the 5400-6000 range. The is probably no reason to go below these levels. If you are doing it for fear of harming the gun, you should not be shooting that particular arm anyway..... :wink:


I agree that there may be no reason to go below 5000 psi---other than a greater margin of safety. Do you have, or can you point me to, any impirical data substantiating and proving that shooting something lower than 5000 psi can hazardous to your health?


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 Post subject: Re: Low pressure 12 gauge load for old 12 side by side
PostPosted: Mon Mar 08, 2010 5:28 pm 
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bamboozler wrote:
carpe dm wrote:
I have concocked some 12ga loads as low as 4000 psi, but I have since read that these might be hazzardous to my health! :)


Do you have, or can you point me to, any impirical data substantiating and proving that shooting something lower than 5000 psi can hazardous to your health?


I'll look for it. I read it in a reloading manual and in an article in a shotgun journal.

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 Post subject: Re: Low pressure 12 gauge load for old 12 side by side
PostPosted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 5:50 am 
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You didn't mention what the chamber length was on this gun, alot of these older gun were 2 1/2" or 2 5/8". If it is a short chamber you rule out trying to use a 1 1/8 oz load in it, most of the shorter chamber guns were only proofed for Black Powder. Loads for 1oz in Black Powder would go like this, Federal Gold Medal, 70-80Gr of FFG, any primer will suffice, WAA12R wad, 1Oz of shot will give you around 1070-1120FPS, chamber pressure in the 4-5K range depending. You could also use one of the various Black Powder substitutes, most as actually more corrosive than Black Powder though. You mentioned the gunsmith was putting the barrels back on face, have him check the proofing on this gun as well and certify it safe to shoot.


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 Post subject: Re: Low pressure 12 gauge load for old 12 side by side
PostPosted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 8:42 am 
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bamboozler wrote:
Do you have, or can you point me to, any impirical data substantiating and proving that shooting something lower than 5000 psi can hazardous to your health?
bamboozler-
I'll admit upfront to having no data, nor have I seen any published. I'd like to see some actual data also.

However, it's known from a lot of experiences reported on this forum that reduced loads can result in bloopers and erratic ignition. Incomplete burning of powder is a major part of this. It's not directly hazardous, unless a wad sticks in the barrel.

A thread on this forum that included some "expert" opinion on hazards of reduced loads can be found from 2+ years ago: http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=117771.

--Bob


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 Post subject: Re: Low pressure 12 gauge load for old 12 side by side
PostPosted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 3:41 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jun 15, 2004 11:55 am
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Poor, erratic ballistics result from very low pressure, which can lead to other problems. If the gun is safe to shoot with black powder, then it is safe with any powder as long as the pressure is kept the same or less than that generated by the load the gun was proofed to shoot. I am not an expert on BP pressure, but I believe it usually runs 6,000 psi or less in a BP shotgun but can be over 8,000 psi with some heavy loads. Consult your gunsmith to be sure, but I don't think it matters to the gun what powder generated the pressure, it is the amount of pressure that is the issue. Looking at an old Hodgdon's complimentary data manual, it lists loads with pyrodex for gauges .410 to 10 ga. 3.5". The highest pressure is 6900 lups in the 3.5" 10 ga. with 2 oz. of shot & 100 grs. of pyrodex CTG. The lowest pressure is 4900 lups, again with the 10 ga. but this time in the 2 7/8" hull using 80 grs. of CTG with 1 5/8 oz. of shot. The data says "ANY TUBE" & uses card & filler wads. It also says that damascus barrels are unsafe to shoot with any powder but I think that has proven to be untrue. It depends on the gun & how it was proofed. There are 3.5" 10 ga. magnum guns out there with damascus barrels that have passed reproof for modern smokeless ammo.!


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 Post subject: Re: Low pressure 12 gauge load for old 12 side by side
PostPosted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 5:57 pm 
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Joined: Sun Nov 13, 2005 10:15 am
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pitted bore wrote:
bamboozler wrote:
Do you have, or can you point me to, any impirical data substantiating and proving that shooting something lower than 5000 psi can hazardous to your health?
bamboozler-
I'll admit upfront to having no data, nor have I seen any published. I'd like to see some actual data also.

However, it's known from a lot of experiences reported on this forum that reduced loads can result in bloopers and erratic ignition. Incomplete burning of powder is a major part of this. It's not directly hazardous, unless a wad sticks in the barrel.

A thread on this forum that included some "expert" opinion on hazards of reduced loads can be found from 2+ years ago: http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=117771.

--Bob

Thank you Bob for the reply and the link. The wad hanging up in the bore, of course is an issue regardless of what pressure one is shooting. My favorite low pressure load for my S x S damascus guns (that are sound and have sufficient MWT), a published recipe that I've been utilizing for years, generates 1145 fps and 4300 psi. I am going to continue shooting this load until someone, not by someone who has become confused by the facts and regurgitates previous misinformation, but by someone that can offer up impirical data and difinitive proof that it is hazardous to my health.


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 Post subject: Re: Low pressure 12 gauge load for old 12 side by side
PostPosted: Wed Mar 24, 2010 7:03 am 
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Joined: Sun Nov 13, 2005 10:15 am
Posts: 106
carpe dm wrote:
bamboozler wrote:
carpe dm wrote:
I have concocked some 12ga loads as low as 4000 psi, but I have since read that these might be hazzardous to my health! :)


Do you have, or can you point me to, any impirical data substantiating and proving that shooting something lower than 5000 psi can hazardous to your health?


I'll look for it. I read it in a reloading manual and in an article in a shotgun journal.


carpe dm, were you able to come up with those articles yet?
Thanks,
bamboozler


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 Post subject: Re: Low pressure 12 gauge load for old 12 side by side
PostPosted: Wed Mar 24, 2010 2:31 pm 
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Bamboozler, I don't mean to butt into your discussion but I think both you & Cape dm have been around long enough to know that the pressure needed to maintain ballistic stability varies greatly with different powders. Black powder works fine at relatively low pressure & generally speaking fast powders are more consistent at low pressure than slow powders. I think a better question is how ballistically consistent is the load? If it is ballistically consistent/ stable, it is not likely to leave a wad in the barrel. It is also true that loads with pressure considerably below the normal working pressure for a powder are more prone to problems. I personally believe that there are perfectly good loads out there with pressure as low as 4000 psi. but these are the exception to the rule with most smokeless powders.


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