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 Post subject: Remy Model 11 Military?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 11, 2010 9:28 am 
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Joined: Thu Mar 19, 2009 6:15 pm
Posts: 634
Location: S. Florida
Found a very interesting Remmington Model 11 (A5 clone), stamped US, Military Finish, shorter barrel(around~ 22 -24" ), in excelent condition from a private owner who aquired it from a govt surplus armory auction. It sure looks like an original military issue to me, Remmington Ilion, New York, Model 11 on the bolt, various proof marks, serial # 496796, also "US" , Military Finish, and an oil finished (somewhat blocky) stock. Owner said it was still cosmoline packed and brown paper wrapped when purchased.
It has been fired, but surely not much, is still is a nice blue (but a dull unpollished "blue", not gray), no wear indications or scrufs on anything at alll. Wonder when it was made, what its worth, how many are around, and what i should give for it. Its a very pristine, all original example of a military issue and would make a great personal defense and very fast handling upland game gun... I'm a A5 design lover and they're about the most reliable and tuffest auto shotgun ever made!




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 Post subject: Re: Remy Model 11 Military?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 11, 2010 11:15 am 
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Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2007 11:12 am
Posts: 3421
Location: WA/AK
Your Model 11 was made in the first half of 1943. By 1 August Remington had reached serial number 499999 and then 12-gauge Model 11/Sportsman serial numbers jumped to 700000. During WW-II the Government/military used thousands of Model 11s as guard guns and as skeet guns for preliminary aerial gunnery training, teaching new gunners to lead moving targets.

I find Model 11 12-gauges slow movers in the pawn shops at around here at $200. Then you see guys at gun shows asking twice that much!?! The military markings might add a slight premium to the right collectors.


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 Post subject: Re: Remy Model 11 Military?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 11, 2010 12:16 pm 
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Joined: Thu Mar 19, 2009 6:15 pm
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Location: S. Florida
Thanks for the Fast Reply... Thats what i was afraid of, $200 max, after all, It aint a Browning, just a clone....


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 Post subject: Re: Remy Model 11 Military?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 11, 2010 1:56 pm 
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The M11 military is about the most common Military shotgun out there. In my area a decent one will sell in the $200-$300 area.

That said, a collector will pay more for a mint example. The Blue Book shows a 98% gun at $1000 and mentions that a "NIB" surplus gun with the box and papers can bring $2500. That figure would include the owner's manual. Also, the market is pretty slow for these guns, as Researcher pointed out.

I am no expert on military shotguns but I do collect A5s and clones. In the 80s, I bought a very minty M11, military finish, for $155 and later gun a military marked "Sportsman" 3 shot with a blued and polished finish in about 95% condition for $285.

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 Post subject: Re: Remy Model 11 Military?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 11, 2010 2:32 pm 
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Joined: Wed Jun 11, 2003 8:27 pm
Posts: 744
This is picky but I don't think it is correct to call the Model 11 an A5 clone. It is built on the same Browning patent that FN used to build theirs. Of course I am partial to Remingtons. How about the A5 being a Model 11 clone?


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 Post subject: Re: Remy Model 11 Military?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 11, 2010 6:34 pm 
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Joined: Wed Oct 21, 2009 8:59 pm
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Location: Portland, Oregon
How about Remington Model 11?

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 Post subject: Re: Remy Model 11 Military?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 11, 2010 8:23 pm 
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Joined: Thu Mar 19, 2009 6:15 pm
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Location: S. Florida
OK, Remmington Model 11 Military, I'm a believer. A nice piece a metal and machinery in good condition, for $200 one could look past the plain block stock. I bet it's a good shooter for the money...


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 Post subject: Re: Remy Model 11 Military?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 12, 2010 4:16 am 
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Lots of history here. John Browning went to Remington to sell his patent (1900) on the day that the guy in charge, Mr. Hartley, got sick and died. He then went to Belgium and sold the patent to FN. FN started producing the A5 in 1903. Remington soon followed in 1905 with the Remington Automatic Shotgun, the "RAS". The RAS became the Model 11 in 1911 when UMC took over Remington. The Model 11 and the FN A5 are different versions of the John Moses Browning patent and are different guns. Winchester made a similar gun, the M1911, also known as the "Widow Maker". The Winchester was a huge failure. Thus the Remington RAS and the M11 are Browning A5 clones as are many other guns such as the Savage M720, Rosenthal, and several Japanese versions. I even have an A5 clone that was copied in a third world shop from junk parts. There are alot more details but that is just a brief synopsis.

INMHO, the RAS, M11, Savage M720, Savage M726, M 740, M745, Niko/Kodensha, Rosdenthal and the "American Brownings", etc. are clones. That is not to say that some of these guns are not reliable semi-autos and, in the case of high grade Remingtons, beautiful and valuable guns.

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 Post subject: Re: Remy Model 11 Military?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 12, 2010 9:17 am 
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John B. was in the habit of selling his long gun designs to Winchester so that was his first try with the auto shotgun. This time they were not interested in the deal John wanted so off he went to Remington. One difference between the FN and Remington guns is the magazine cut off on the FN models. It looks neat, but I have never used it. In 1928 Remington got smart and got rid of the suicide safety (safety in the trigger guard). Browning (FN) didn't make this upgrade until after WWII ( I think).


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 Post subject: Re: Remy Model 11 Military?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 12, 2010 9:55 am 
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Union Metallic Cartridge Co. didn't "take over" Remington Arms Co. Marcellus Hartley owned both. After he died the control eventually passed to Marcellus Hartly Dodge who decided to combine his two companies as Remington Arms - Union Metallic Cartridge Co. in 1911. If Marcellus Hartley hadn't died just when he did, their might never have been a Browning A5, they might well have all been Remington Autoloading Guns!!


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 Post subject: Re: Remy Model 11 Military?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 12, 2010 2:54 pm 
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Was Winchester "not interested" in Browning's self-loading shotgun? Or was it because they wanted to buy Browning's design outright rather than pay him royalties?


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 Post subject: Re: Remy Model 11 Military?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 12, 2010 6:22 pm 
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Location: WA/AK
That has always been the story. Apparently John knew he had the real deal this time and wasn't about to sell it outright. The managers at big W apparently couldn't get their minds around the idea of paying J.M. a royalty and Remington has dominated the North American autoloading shotgun business ever since. Guess now we'll never see a decent autoloading shotgun come out of New Haven!!




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