CalendarCalendar   Photos  * FAQ
It is currently Thu Nov 27, 2014 8:08 am

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 43 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Remington Hyper Sonic Steel
PostPosted: Thu Jun 17, 2010 12:41 pm 
Shotgun Expert
Shotgun Expert
User avatar

Joined: Sat Sep 09, 2006 11:02 am
Posts: 14694
Location: Plainfield, IL
Those with excellent hearing will hear several sounds. The giant sucking sound coming from your wallet, the happy subsonic boom of the cash register, the bellowing cry when the stock impales itself into your shoulder, and shriek of anguish when you realize that a dramatic change in muzzle velocity blows your traditional swing and leads all to Hades. :|



_________________
--Randy

http://randywakeman.com


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Remington Hyper Sonic Steel
PostPosted: Thu Jun 17, 2010 1:30 pm 
Field Grade

Joined: Tue Jun 15, 2010 2:46 pm
Posts: 35
Too funny. :)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Remington Hyper Sonic Steel
PostPosted: Sun Jun 20, 2010 9:37 pm 
Presentation Grade

Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2007 8:16 pm
Posts: 666
Location: Columbus Nebraska
Randy,

I thought it was you that posted that velocity in a shot shell has little to nothing to d with lead? IF it wasn't it is true. I've seen the calculations and they have little bearing.

All,

One thing I've always wondered. Shotgun recoil is energy out the front = energy out the back (recoil). However, there has to be some 20-30% more energy lost in the transfer going out the front for it to work (not transferred to heat) in order to get the energy of the shot charge itself (system efficiency). So, I wonder if they are just making the system more efficient and if that really translates to that much more recoil then a typical shell?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Remington Hyper Sonic Steel
PostPosted: Sun Jun 20, 2010 9:42 pm 
Shotgun Expert
Shotgun Expert
User avatar

Joined: Sat Sep 09, 2006 11:02 am
Posts: 14694
Location: Plainfield, IL
Of course velocity affects lead, as does mass of the projectile.

That's the short version of what external ballistics is: "time of flight."

_________________
--Randy

http://randywakeman.com


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Remington Hyper Sonic Steel
PostPosted: Sun Jun 20, 2010 11:05 pm 
Presentation Grade

Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2005 3:28 am
Posts: 569
Location: Michigan
Randy, just to get a gauge here. You do not consider 1330 high velocity?

_________________
"Make mine a double. Whether I'm ordering drinks or shotguns, it's always served me well!"

"It's been my experience that those who shoot most often, most often shoot well." T. Roosevelt.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Remington Hyper Sonic Steel
PostPosted: Sun Jun 20, 2010 11:24 pm 
Shotgun Expert
Shotgun Expert
User avatar

Joined: Sat Sep 09, 2006 11:02 am
Posts: 14694
Location: Plainfield, IL
I think I just answered that: A "high-velocity" 1330 fps lead field load, in practice, isn't all that high. Shorter barrels and far colder than "ambient lab temperatures" see to that.

1330 fps nominal lab velocity has been a traditional 1-1/4 oz. 12 gauge hunting load for a very long time, a typical "high brass" field load.

Out of a short barrel at colder temperatures, you likely won't see it, but stated lab velocities are never precise when it comes to an individual hunting gun under different ambient conditions.

_________________
--Randy

http://randywakeman.com


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Remington Hyper Sonic Steel
PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2010 10:43 pm 
Presentation Grade

Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2007 8:16 pm
Posts: 666
Location: Columbus Nebraska
I happened across the article. It was Tom Roster or McCintosh that said it. And, they are correct it has negligible effect. It has to do with the 3D nature of the shot charge and the time of flight vs. velocity.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Remington Hyper Sonic Steel
PostPosted: Thu Jun 24, 2010 8:23 am 
Presentation Grade

Joined: Thu Oct 08, 2009 5:52 pm
Posts: 507
These new improvements you keep seeing in steel shotshells are going to make the 3 1/2 inch steel shell obsolete. This new Remington wad and the new Federal wads are designed to hold the shot together longer for a better pattern. Now you are getting these incredible speeds with 3 inch shells and there will be no need for 3 1/2 inch shells. These new 3 inch shells are about all a shoulder can handle. If you want lighter recoil in quality shells steel is not the answer, but on the other had speed does kill when it comes to steel. I learned that when I was a kid using BB guns. You can easily tell the difference with every 100 fps of increased speed with a BB gun.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Remington Hyper Sonic Steel
PostPosted: Sun Sep 05, 2010 8:14 pm 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Thu Nov 20, 2008 9:14 pm
Posts: 138
scattergunnerdude wrote:
These new improvements you keep seeing in steel shotshells are going to make the 3 1/2 inch steel shell obsolete. This new Remington wad and the new Federal wads are designed to hold the shot together longer for a better pattern. Now you are getting these incredible speeds with 3 inch shells and there will be no need for 3 1/2 inch shells. These new 3 inch shells are about all a shoulder can handle. If you want lighter recoil in quality shells steel is not the answer, but on the other had speed does kill when it comes to steel. I learned that when I was a kid using BB guns. You can easily tell the difference with every 100 fps of increased speed with a BB gun.



The new wads are there to protect the barrels thats about it. Remington's new one is a bit alarming to me. "Seeing a break down of it in one of there ads." To get the velocity and trying to keep the pressures at a reasonable level, it looks like they are using a duplex powder charge. An old stunt started by metalic pistol shooters in the late 80's. Use to stack 2 or 3 different powders in a case with a paper disk between them with the bullet seated tight to keep them from mixing. I'd rather have a wad that lets my shotgun work the way it was ment to.
Dan

_________________
The essence of freedom is the proper limitation of government.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Remington Hyper Sonic Steel
PostPosted: Wed Sep 08, 2010 11:43 am 
Crown Grade
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2005 4:43 pm
Posts: 2325
Location: PA Dutch Country
Nice Shot wrote:
scattergunnerdude wrote:
These new improvements you keep seeing in steel shotshells are going to make the 3 1/2 inch steel shell obsolete. This new Remington wad and the new Federal wads are designed to hold the shot together longer for a better pattern. Now you are getting these incredible speeds with 3 inch shells and there will be no need for 3 1/2 inch shells. These new 3 inch shells are about all a shoulder can handle. If you want lighter recoil in quality shells steel is not the answer, but on the other had speed does kill when it comes to steel. I learned that when I was a kid using BB guns. You can easily tell the difference with every 100 fps of increased speed with a BB gun.



The new wads are there to protect the barrels thats about it. Remington's new one is a bit alarming to me. "Seeing a break down of it in one of there ads." To get the velocity and trying to keep the pressures at a reasonable level, it looks like they are using a duplex powder charge. An old stunt started by metalic pistol shooters in the late 80's. Use to stack 2 or 3 different powders in a case with a paper disk between them with the bullet seated tight to keep them from mixing. I'd rather have a wad that lets my shotgun work the way it was ment to.
Dan


The hypersonic shells are on the market now for months and there is no need to speculate further as of Sept 2010. There is only one type of powder, at least from my untrained eye. The tube over the primer does indeed work to allow them to pack almost 50 grains of a powder into a steel payload shell. For good or bad, that is a lot of powder for a near 1-1/4 oz load (~525 gr), allowing them to chrono at nearly 1700 fps at 5 ft within SAAMI specs for chamber pressure.

Likewise, the black clouds have been out for a few years and anyone who has patterned them at various ranges can see clearly that the Flight Control wad doe indeed act differently than a standard steel shot wad.

I'm not much for the idea of shooting low density steel at birds, but there has been some innovation from these two companies that is real and should not be disregarded.

Jeremiah

_________________
Image
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Remington Hyper Sonic Steel
PostPosted: Wed Sep 08, 2010 3:54 pm 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Thu Nov 20, 2008 9:14 pm
Posts: 138
Well put Jeremiah.

_________________
The essence of freedom is the proper limitation of government.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Remington Hyper Sonic Steel
PostPosted: Wed Sep 08, 2010 4:27 pm 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Mon Aug 11, 2003 10:22 pm
Posts: 222
Location: Sharon Pa
All I can tell you is that all this conjecture about these shells is just that conjecture, ie: they have to have more recoil, speed isn't needed, your lead will not be the same, etc. I have been shooting these loads 1 1/8 oz. BB's since the first of the month and it has no comparison, even my handloads at 1550 fps don't come close to lethality of these loads. I've shot 10 birds so far this season. All from 25 yards to 50+ yards in a short sleeve shirt and the recoil is light. All shots were through a 870 Remington with a modified choke. Now the report is loud so I would suggest hearing potection but that's up to each individual. All birds were taken with one shot kills, none were taken over decoys, all pass shooting. If your looking for a close in shell I wouldn't be looking at these rounds but for the longer range shots these shells far exceeded my expectations. The bird I shot this morning was a going away shot at approx. 35 yards, the pellets entered the bird near the anus and the pellets passed through the bird and were lodged in the breast meat in the front of the bird. I'm not easily impressed but these shells really impressed me. Anytime I can get a round where I can harvest 10 birds with 12 shots I will keep using it.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Remington Hyper Sonic Steel
PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2011 11:37 am 
Utility Grade

Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2011 11:28 am
Posts: 2
I have been patterning my shotguns with every load ive found. I found that for a 3" shell hypersteel hits and kills the hardest with the best pattern. Although its high in recoil i think its the best three inch load available in #2's I was unable to find any 3.5 but ive heard that it has been breaking auto's anyone else heard about this?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Remington Hyper Sonic Steel
PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2011 1:43 pm 
Crown Grade
User avatar

Joined: Mon Mar 07, 2005 4:16 pm
Posts: 4400
Location: Long Island, NY
bigguns90 wrote:
I was unable to find any 3.5 but ive heard that it has been breaking auto's anyone else heard about this?


Yes, I have, but all have been unsubstantiated. The internet is a huge rumor mill at times. But this I can tell you from personal experience. I began testing some 3 inch 1 1/8oz HyperSonics in my Beretta A390. That gun has an allow reciever and is gas operated. The recoil in that gun was noticable, but not unbearable, by any means. The thing that concerned me was the amount of energy the bolt slammed into the back of the receiver with!!!!! After about five shots, I gave the remainder away.

A look at the CIP standards for steel loads reveals that these loads are NOT recommended for use in any CIP compliant gun. CIP limits the max velocity of steel loads to around 1400fps and sets limitations on the charge weight by restricting the momentum (charge weight x velocity). These loads fail in both areas. Keep in mind that this standard is for the manufacture of cartridges, but it also contains recommendations as to which firearms they should or shouldn't be used in.

As far as pressure is concerned, the heart of the design of the Hypersonic wads is that it is a two stage system. A small starter charge is placed inside a contained area in the wad. This starter charge is exposed to the primer. When ignited, this charge is supposed to move the load enough to create more volume in the hull and thus maintain pressure within safe limits. Makes some sense, but why not just develop a slower burning powder that would fit in the same volume? The risk of catestrophic failure would seem much lower. In a recent article in Wildfowl magazine, LP Brezny was discussing the 3 inch Hypersonics. He stated that they were "hot burners" and he sent some out for pressure testing. When the results came back, it was found that the average pressure was over 13000psi! It is possible that the shells he was talking about were 3 1/2 inch, but the ambiguity was enough that there should have been a clarification. I read subsequent issues carefully to see if I could find any clarification or retraction. None came.

Frank

_________________
Μολών λαβέ


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Remington Hyper Sonic Steel
PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2011 12:20 am 
Presentation Grade
User avatar

Joined: Tue Nov 30, 2010 5:55 pm
Posts: 787
I tried a box of this stuff in 3” #1 shot through my 12gauge Mossberg 9200 and I had no luck at all this stuff was all over the place I was using a Carlson Steel modified extended choke, I was getting awesome patterns at 40yards with Black cloud and Federal premium steel #2s as well as BB but these new hypersonic loads just have a ton of kick and a super loud report it’s a big difference from the 1450-1550 fps loads I normally shoot. In my opinion this stuff is garbage but I only tested it with one gun and one choke I still have some left I will have to do some more patterning with My 11-87 this time and see what I come up with but I won’t be spending the money on this stuff again, I have not see the 3 ½” in action but I can imagine the recoil the 3” is bad enough. The only thing I send 3 ½” through is my 10gauge and Remington’s sportsmansteel BB’s at 1500fps pattern great other than that I stay away from Remington shells and only shoot federal.

_________________
"Clean it good before you shoot it and shoot it good before you clean it"


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Remington Hyper Sonic Steel
PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2011 8:22 pm 
Utility Grade

Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2011 11:28 am
Posts: 2
I found the same problem when shooting them from my SX3 was my bolt would slam back harder then it would when i shot any 3.5s out of it so i switched and shot it out of my nova where it patterned awsome at 40" yds with a carlson choke. just hard on equipment.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Remington Hyper Sonic Steel
PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2011 9:54 pm 
Presentation Grade
User avatar

Joined: Tue Nov 30, 2010 5:55 pm
Posts: 787
bigguns90 wrote:
I found the same problem when shooting them from my SX3 was my bolt would slam back harder then it would when i shot any 3.5s out of it so i switched and shot it out of my nova where it patterned awsome at 40" yds with a carlson choke. just hard on equipment.



There is no doubt these loads pound your gun much harder than the previous high velocity loads of 1400-1500fps my Mossberg 9200 was seeing some wear on the forearm retainer/spring buffer after just 10 shots and it is because the back on the gas system was slamming into that plastic piece much harder than it was made for but I need to try these loads through my 11-87 to see how they pattern and also I want to compare them to the new black cloud snow goose loads. It is amazing what modern shotgun ammunition has come to even since I have been hunting (12 years)

_________________
"Clean it good before you shoot it and shoot it good before you clean it"


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Remington Hyper Sonic Steel
PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 9:31 pm 
Field Grade

Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2010 6:06 pm
Posts: 80
Location: Tennessee
I compared these loads to BC's and others. They pattern decent, but the recoil is unbelievable. The first one I shot I thought had a double powder charge. :shock: Recoil is usually not an issue for me, but recoil and muzzle jump was tremendous.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Remington Hyper Sonic Steel
PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2011 4:20 am 
Presentation Grade
User avatar

Joined: Tue Nov 30, 2010 5:55 pm
Posts: 787
Yes sir these babies kick like hell and I was shooting my auto, I am almost scared to run them through a pump or double gun, they may even cause damage to most doubles.

_________________
"Clean it good before you shoot it and shoot it good before you clean it"


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Remington Hyper Sonic Steel
PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2011 7:14 am 
Presentation Grade
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jul 25, 2010 10:30 am
Posts: 559
Location: Downeast NC
I patterned a few 12 gauge, 3" BB HyperSonic's that a friend gave me (he is a true believer) in my Benelli M-2 and could tell quite a difference in the recoil too (pattern was worst I had of four loads patterned using the Carlson's MR tube). I think if I were to ever use them it would be in a pump action shotgun and not in a semi-auto.




Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 43 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Registered users: 1958jr, Azraz, bigalt, Bing [Bot], BobK, btomlin, budrock56, CB Lastmanout, Cerberus, charlie1934, collins1707, Cooper4141, creeker, Cynewulf, David McMillen, dbuffington, dinrhmk, equine, Eriehunter, fbaron3, fungunner, gege hughes, GF1, Google [Bot], Google Adsense [Bot], Google Feedfetcher, Grousen, heelerman, HMM36319, hunter5567, idropd1, jack mountain, jharrington, jmanz6, jsorvik, ken325, Kraiza, KRIEGHOFFK80, leftex, Majestic-12 [Bot], mddan, More Lead, NCMikeR, nwtapingtools, oldbirdhntr, olddrum, PKW-Indiana, pulllit, puppypusher, rbs, sabcon, SDV, sitsinhedges, strut64, tdxm, tincansailor, tradewinds, TuJays, ultimatt, USMCThaxton86, Yahoo [Bot]


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group     -  DMCA Notice