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 Post subject: Drilling a stock bolt through hole ... by Howdedoit.
PostPosted: Sun Jun 20, 2010 2:59 am 
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Gents,

I am in need of help. I have to drill a stock blank for a stock bolt.

Total length about 15" and with a counterbore for the bolt head to locate on. I don't have a drill press or a lathe. What does one do? Tools to hand are a Dewalt hand drill, a big router and lots of time. I'm happy with jigging it up and getting he angle right, it's just putting the hole through that bugs me.

No doubt the ole time backwoodsmen gunsmiths did this with a bent nail and a piece of string, but they seem not to have passed the secret on. :lol:

regards
Eug

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Last edited by eugene molloy on Mon Jun 21, 2010 2:16 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Drilling a stock bolt through hole ... by Howdedoit.
PostPosted: Sun Jun 20, 2010 5:47 am 
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My instructions for drilling a long hole in endgrain with only a portable electric drill:

1) Find competent wordworking shop or enthusiast (think: furniture maker).
2) Tell them you have a peculiar challenge, but you're not sure they can handle it.
3) Describe what you want to do and get an estimate on the cost.
4) Hope that cost is cheaper than destroying a perfectly good stock or blank.

If the hole were just a hole and not in end-grain, there are any number of ways of setting it up. That long hole in tough end grain without a suitable jig or fixture has lots of pitfalls.

It is not that you can't do it with an electric drill, it's just that there are a lot more unnecessary risks of failure.


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 Post subject: Re: Drilling a stock bolt through hole ... by Howdedoit.
PostPosted: Sun Jun 20, 2010 7:00 am 
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You might consider contacting Wenig in Missouri -
http://www.wenig.com.

Not only could they drill a bolt hole that is correct for a particular gun but they could also rough out the shape of the stock and do 90% of the inletting if you choose to have them do it, all for a reasonable price.

The hole needs to be exact - at both ends. Why not get it done correctly?

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 Post subject: Re: Drilling a stock bolt through hole ... by Howdedoit.
PostPosted: Sun Jun 20, 2010 10:02 am 
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I concur wholeheartedly with 6thMichCav and Rollin Oswald..without a lathe or milling machine ur better off to get a pro to handle this !

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 Post subject: Re: Drilling a stock bolt through hole ... by Howdedoit.
PostPosted: Sun Jun 20, 2010 10:59 am 
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Missouri's a long way from Powys...


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 Post subject: Re: Drilling a stock bolt through hole ... by Howdedoit.
PostPosted: Sun Jun 20, 2010 11:28 am 
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Quote:
Missouri's a long way from Powys...
{hs#

Gents, thanks for your suggestions, the point is that I want to do this, and maybe more than once.

I'll find a way.

Eug

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For my part, I mind my belly very studiously, and very carefully; for I look upon it, that he who does not mind his belly, will hardly mind anything else." Doctor Johnson quoted by Boswell.


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 Post subject: Re: Drilling a stock bolt through hole ... by Howdedoit.
PostPosted: Sun Jun 20, 2010 12:27 pm 
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Probably, the use of an old style brace and auger bit, Larger size first, might be an easy way to do it.

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 Post subject: Re: Drilling a stock bolt through hole ... by Howdedoit.
PostPosted: Sun Jun 20, 2010 12:43 pm 
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Eugene, I am trying to think of the ways I have done it and how you might create a way to do it with your tools. The best way to do it is with a lathe. But all the lathe becomes is a giant drill that is mounted horizontal and the tail stock is used to drive the stock blank onto the drill bit. You should be able to do the same thing with some clamps and a very solid base. You drill halfway and then reverse the blank and go from the other end to complete the hole.

I am envisioning a wood base possibly built with two 2x6's side by side with some cross members underneath. On the sides you could attach some boards that will create a vertical rail. You will then need to build a sled for lack of a better word that fits the width of the base fairly precisely. You will need to mount your blank on this sled as well as mount your drill and make sure that the drill bit is along the axis and aligned vertically. the drill bit will have to be long enough to go half way but those are available. If the blank is aligned so that the line of the bolt hole you should be able to slide the blank onto the drill bit from both ends and complete the hole. The rear hole will not have to be enlarged and to the depth required so you will need a larger drill bit. A spade bit will not work as you also have a hole. It might be advisable to do the rear larger hole first.

Might be something we can build on here with more advice.

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 Post subject: Re: Drilling a stock bolt through hole ... by Howdedoit.
PostPosted: Sun Jun 20, 2010 3:21 pm 
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Customstox

Thank you; I'm thinking along roughly similar lines; if I haven't got a lathe, in some ways fashion one.

All I want to do is drill a deep hole through a billet of wood, it need not be anything like a finished stock, just a blank. In fact that was going to be my first operation on the blank anyway, just make the hole. Providing it's straight I can find the precise head angles later.

Starting with the major diameter first, I can use the stiffist drill shank possible which will help things. Then I have two choices....

1) Go all the way through with the major dia. and reduce the hole with a pre-drilled wooden plug. The plug (or more likely a series of them) could be knocked up with a router and collet.

2) Stop at the required depth and use the bigger hole as the pilot for a smaller drill. The small drill shank can be fitted with a wooden collar(s) again made with the router, to keep things on line. If I need to back off to clear chips, so what.

Actually driving the drill bit I don't see as a problem, and it needn't be motor driven ; in fact just turning it by hand would be a lot less waggly than a motor and is my preferred option as per Curlys post..

Curly-Nohair Yours is a pretty fair suggestion. It'd need the brace to be stabilised initially, but it's worth consideration. It would also be possible (and pretty easy) to plunge rout a starter hole of the right diameter and angle to act as a pilot for a common or garden brace and auger.

Thanks again and keep thinking guys.

Eug

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For my part, I mind my belly very studiously, and very carefully; for I look upon it, that he who does not mind his belly, will hardly mind anything else." Doctor Johnson quoted by Boswell.


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 Post subject: Re: Drilling a stock bolt through hole ... by Howdedoit.
PostPosted: Sun Jun 20, 2010 7:40 pm 
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Brace and bit. Forget the power tools and fancy set-ups. Mark the center line on the narrow edge and the drilling line on the broad side. Mark the hole center and go to work. Clamp workpiece in a vise: preferably on the end of your bench so you can stand directly behind the brace. Push the point of the bit into the stock and commence to drill. Go slow. Now go slower. Lean on the brace with your chest and keep the bit aligned with your marks. It may help to use the ratchet feature of your brace to keep you comfortable and easier to keep things aligned. When you reach desired depth, remove the bit, add an extension and the the smaller bit. Drill the rest of the hole. Go slow. Keep things aligned. You'll do fine.

It might help if you drill a practice hole or two in a piece of scrap. It's hard to get in trouble if you do it this way because you can see any errors as soon as they start and correct them at once. My Dad taught me to use a brace and bit when I was just a little guy. I still have his brace and most of his bits. I can still hear him saying, "Bobby, keep her lined up."


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 Post subject: Re: Drilling a stock bolt through hole ... by Howdedoit.
PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2010 12:33 am 
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The only problem with hand tools that are hand held or even power tools had held is that they can start to wander. It is not a big problem in the width of the blank but it can be in regards to the thickness. You will still need to drill from both ends but from my experience you can have a bear of a time to them to meet in the middle without some control of your alignment.

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 Post subject: Re: Drilling a stock bolt through hole ... by Howdedoit.
PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2010 1:55 am 
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Thanks once again lads,

It'll be a few weeks before I get going, I have a deal of preparatory work to do, but I'll let you know how I get on (or don't!) with the wood butchery.

Eug

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For my part, I mind my belly very studiously, and very carefully; for I look upon it, that he who does not mind his belly, will hardly mind anything else." Doctor Johnson quoted by Boswell.


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 Post subject: Re: Drilling a stock bolt through hole ... by Howdedoit.
PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2010 9:16 am 
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I will wait for that

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 Post subject: Re: Drilling a stock bolt through hole ... by Howdedoit.
PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2010 6:18 pm 
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Okay, here's a mixture of ideas. Consider Customstox's sled idea:

Clamp your drill securely to your work surface. You're going to need some LONG bits--and I'm thinking spade bits or a Forstner bit with an extension for the larger hole. Build a sled that drives your stock exactly parallel and on axis to your bit. You may have to build in an elevation adjustment that will allow you to put the hole at exactly the right place (think a hinge--allows fine minor adjustments). The smaller hole could then be cut with a long twist drill bit with a pilot to keep it centered.

While I have a lot of respect for Curley's posts in general, I can't recommend a brace and bit for end grain. I love braces and bits, but unless the bit and screw are extremely sharp, they lose purchase quickly in the end grain of hard (stock) woods like walnut. Cross grain is fine, but end grain is a different story. In fact, with the driving screw still in place, end grain is one of the best ways to STOP a brace and bit from cutting. A few Google quotes on this subject--and admittedly, they are just opinions from other internet schmucks like me:

"Brace drill bits do not cut well in the end grain of wood. The central screw tends to pull out, or to split the wood along the grain, and the radial edges have trouble cutting through the long wood fibres."

"They are easily sharpened with a stone, work quickly and leave a smooth hole, but do not cut so well in end grain."

Looking forward to the solution that works for you!


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 Post subject: Re: Drilling a stock bolt through hole ... by Howdedoit.
PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2010 6:31 pm 
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6thMichCav wrote:
Okay, here's a mixture of ideas. Consider Customstox's sled idea:

Clamp your drill securely to your work surface. You're going to need some LONG bits--and I'm thinking spade bits or a Forstner bit with an extension for the larger hole. Build a sled that drives your stock exactly parallel and on axis to your bit. You may have to build in an elevation adjustment that will allow you to put the hole at exactly the right place (think a hinge--allows fine minor adjustments). The smaller hole could then be cut with a long twist drill bit with a pilot to keep it centered.

While I have a lot of respect for Curley's posts in general, I can't recommend a brace and bit for end grain. I love braces and bits, but unless the bit and screw are extremely sharp, they lose purchase quickly in the end grain of hard (stock) woods like walnut. Cross grain is fine, but end grain is a different story. In fact, with the driving screw still in place, end grain is one of the best ways to STOP a brace and bit from cutting. A few Google quotes on this subject--and admittedly, they are just opinions from other internet schmucks like me:

"Brace drill bits do not cut well in the end grain of wood. The central screw tends to pull out, or to split the wood along the grain, and the radial edges have trouble cutting through the long wood fibres."

"They are easily sharpened with a stone, work quickly and leave a smooth hole, but do not cut so well in end grain."

Looking forward to the solution that works for you!


Thanks for posting that !

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 Post subject: Re: Drilling a stock bolt through hole ... by Howdedoit.
PostPosted: Wed Jun 23, 2010 2:34 am 
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6thMichCav

Thank you.

We are thinking along similar lines right now. Amongst my other tools I have a Triton table saw, you know the big yellow boxy things built Downunder.
Image

Underneath the removable table top the saw is mounted on a sled which can run very accurately (and wobble free) through a distance of around 36". So in effect we have a tail stock which can carry the drill or the workpiece. It also has a rise and fall mechanism. :!:

I can source 450mm full length auger bits pretty cheaply; they have the benefit of being self supporting whilst in the hole, but the disadvantages of being the screw fed type. For the first run I'll try one out in a chunk of scrap and see what we get.

Image

Thanks again,

Eug

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For my part, I mind my belly very studiously, and very carefully; for I look upon it, that he who does not mind his belly, will hardly mind anything else." Doctor Johnson quoted by Boswell.


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 Post subject: Re: Drilling a stock bolt through hole ... by Howdedoit.
PostPosted: Wed Jun 23, 2010 11:47 am 
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Eugene, that long brace and bit gave me an idea. If you drill a block of wood, or a series of 2x4's you can create a bushing that allows you to align the bushings to drill the hole in the blank. You might need to have those holes drilled on a drill press to ensure that the holes are perpendicular to the face and more importantly, parallel to the sides. When you do it, line up three or more blocks and drill them at the same time and make sure the blocks are aligned perfectly with each other.

Now you can lay those bushing blocks up against your blank to align the drill bit. You may need to shim either the bocks or the blank to get the proper alignment of the hole. Lay all this out on the edge of a table, metal if available for rigidity. Then lay a length of steel angle iron across the top and clamp it with a number of C clamps. You know should have a series of bushings to guide the bit into your blank. Drill with the power drill or by hand with a brace. I would still stop and drill again from the other end but that bit is going to be pretty rigid and may not need this. Of course that action end will have a smaller bit size and may need more rigidity. Into my rambling stage. :?

I was just looking at your table saw and had another thought along the same lines. Use the fence as a guide for both the blank and the bushing blocks. Scribe the bolt line on the side of the blank and cut a wedge so you can align the hole of the center parallel to the fence. Lay the blank on the table up against the fence and place the wedge next to the narrow end of the blank and move it towards the butt until the hole line is parallel. mark the location of the wedge and the use duct tape to keep it in place. You know may need some shims under the bushing blocks or under the blank. Clamp the drill and the blocks and then drive the blank onto the moving drill bit by hand pressure on the blank.

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 Post subject: Re: Drilling a stock bolt through hole ... by Howdedoit.
PostPosted: Wed Jun 23, 2010 3:39 pm 
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CustomstoxI was ahead of you on the bushing thing; to get the holes dead true I could plunge rout them.

Still digesting para 3!!

Eug

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For my part, I mind my belly very studiously, and very carefully; for I look upon it, that he who does not mind his belly, will hardly mind anything else." Doctor Johnson quoted by Boswell.


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 Post subject: Re: Drilling a stock bolt through hole ... by Howdedoit.
PostPosted: Wed Jun 23, 2010 7:05 pm 
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I have one of those visual minds but find it hard to put in words what my mind sees. It's a curse, lol.

Think of it this way. If you can get the drill stationary, you are better off pushing the blank onto the bit as it turns, just like it would be done if you use a lathe. So if you use the fence of the table saw as a guide you will need to get the hole centerline parallel to the fence and the wedge on the narrow end should do that. You will also have to align the drill bit so it is parallel to the fence also. I will let you digest some more.

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 Post subject: Re: Drilling a stock bolt through hole ... by Howdedoit.
PostPosted: Thu Jun 24, 2010 5:41 am 
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I tried this with the stock of my IZ18 which can be seen in another thread in the Baikal section.

A jig was made from a Wolfcraft perpendicular drilling stand. Everything was going fine till the drill hit a stone in the wood and went a little off course. I then drilled from the other end and the holes met somewhat.

having done it this way it is now obvious that a lathe and starting the process with mill cutters is a better way to go.

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