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 Post subject: El Faisan??
PostPosted: Sat Jul 10, 2010 12:57 pm 
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Hello,

What would you guys say about the El Faisan guns, in terms of quality. Ive seen an old model with a greener crossbolt, in 12 gauge. Are El Faisans the same run with Zabala's?? Or are they better, say like, Uggies?


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 Post subject: Re: El Faisan??
PostPosted: Sat Jul 10, 2010 1:55 pm 
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The few El Faisans I've handled appeared to be serviceable utility grade doubles. I've not had an opportunity to shoot them and can't comment on performance. Nor, do I know of any long term owners of El Faisans. Based on looks and "feel", I would put them in the same catagory as other price point boxlocks produced for the North American market during the 1960's and 70's. IMO, Zabalas of the past decade or two are better. I would rate the Ugartechea boxlocks I've seen, including those marketed by Parker Hale, as better finished and having higher overall quality.



Montani Semper Liberi


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 Post subject: Re: El Faisan??
PostPosted: Sat Jul 10, 2010 2:01 pm 
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Q8_Hunter wrote:
Hello,

What would you guys say about the El Faisan guns, in terms of quality. Ive seen an old model with a greener crossbolt, in 12 gauge. Are El Faisans the same run with Zabala's?? Or are they better, say like, Uggies?


'El Faisan' is a model designation, used by whomever to describe whatever :roll:

Here are examples of the guns most commonly marked El Faisan:

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewIt ... =178349426

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewIt ... =177160394

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewIt ... =177828357

And here is an older thread, concerning they type of gun pictured in the above auctions:

viewtopic.php?f=126&t=219348

The bottom line is there really isn't any answer to the question asked :(

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 Post subject: Re: El Faisan??
PostPosted: Sat Jul 10, 2010 2:19 pm 
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Thanks guys for the quick responses,

I have searched all over the internet for El Faisan, all i got was what Kyrie has posted, those funny looking double .410.

This is the El Faisan im talking about:

http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/conte ... =SEARCH_gl


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 Post subject: Re: El Faisan??
PostPosted: Sat Jul 10, 2010 3:11 pm 
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I understand.

What I'm trying to convey is 'El Faisan' (the pheasant) is just a marketing name that's been used by different makers on different kinds of shotguns - it has no meaning in and of itself.

Asking about a shotgun named El Faisan is a bit like asking if women named Ellen are good people. The question just doesn't have an answer.

What we really need here are good, close up, photos of the gun, including pictures of the barrel flats and water table. Without the information contained in good photos all we can do is speculate about the gun.

Q8_Hunter wrote:
Thanks guys for the quick responses,

I have searched all over the internet for El Faisan, all i got was what Kyrie has posted, those funny looking double .410.

This is the El Faisan im talking about:

http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/conte ... =SEARCH_gl

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 Post subject: Re: El Faisan??
PostPosted: Sat Jul 10, 2010 4:12 pm 
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Kyrie,

Thanks for posting the 3 links to the exposed hammer .410 bore "El Faisan" SxS's. It would be interesting to see the maker's marks on each of them. Two of the GB links list the guns as "El Faisan- Elgoibar". During the early 1970's, the Asociacion Armera listed four different firms that produced what was described as a "escopeta plegable de los canones sin tablas" or double barreled folding shotgun. The illustration shown in the Asociacion Armera directory is identical to the ones offered on the the three GB on-line Ads. The directory lists the manufacturers as:

Chopitea, Jose Maria.........................Eibar
Suc. de E. Guisasola.........................Eibar
Felix Sarasqueta y Cia., S.A...............Placencia de las Armas
Arosa Aguirre, Pedro.........................Elgoibar

Pedro Arosa Aguirre is also listed as producing typical Anson & Deeley actioned SxS's (with and without cross locking bolt) and sidelock ejector SxS's. All of the El Faisan labelled guns appear to have the same marking/logo on the breech end of the barrels. It would appear that the gun Q8_Hunter is referring to on the Cabelas website was indeed produced by the same
firm that made the crude little .410 bore folding guns with the exposed hammers. Further, it appears that "El Faisan" is indeed a registered Trade or Brand name employed for a range of guns produced by Pedro Arosa Aguirre rather than merely a model name for one specific model. Whether the name "El Faisan" was used by other firms at the time is doubtful but, may have been used by some one else at a later date if Pedro went out of business during the DIARM era.

The El Faisan that Q8_Hunter refers us to on the Cabelas website is similar to the A & D actioned El Faisans I've seen and handled, although it appears to be in better condition.



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 Post subject: Re: El Faisan??
PostPosted: Sat Jul 10, 2010 4:32 pm 
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Doppelflinten,

I suspect the four makers listed in Asociacion Armera are but the tip of a vary large iceberg. Over the years I've seen a number of the little side by side, side lever guns such as these. One I recall was produced by Ignacio Ugartechea, and I'd not be surprised if just about all the larger Spanish makers had produced some number of guns of this type over the years. God knows these guns are common enough, that indicates an ongoing market, and the Spanish shotgun makers were and are in businesss to sell guns!

Nor is Spain the only source for this type of gun. I've seen examples that were produced in Germany, Belgium, and France. Here is one currently on Gun Broker, made in Belgium:

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewIt ... =177656403

I've been tempted to buy one several times, but have resisted so far...

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 Post subject: Re: El Faisan??
PostPosted: Sat Jul 10, 2010 7:29 pm 
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Doppelflinten,

I just realized I let myself get sidetracked into the subject of the little .410’s, and away from the subject of guns marked El Faisan.

Purely IMO, and FWIT, I’m reluctant to offer an opinion on whether the maker of any of the .410 ‘El Faisan’ guns on Gun Broker and the 12 gauge, top lever, El Faisan at Cabelas are the same or different. The proof of that (pun intended) is to be found on the water tables and barrel flats of the individual guns. Alas, without that information all we can do is speculate :(

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 Post subject: Re: El Faisan??
PostPosted: Sat Jul 17, 2010 10:34 pm 
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I checked with the staff at Cabelas in Rogers, Mn. on 7/11/10. They confirmed that the makers mark on the barrel flat of the El Fasian 12 gauge that Q8_hunter linked to is AP within an elongated diamond which I believe is the mark for Pedro Arosa. It would be interesting to see if other "El Fasians" also carry the AP maker's code.

Yes, I've also seen a number of the little side lever SxS's with various makers' names on them. Some Basque, some Italian and some Belgian but, I'm inclined to believe that only the ones with the AP maker's code are marked as El Fasian. Perhaps other SGW forum members can confirm or refute this theory. How about it....show us your El Fasian maker's marks!



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 Post subject: Re: El Faisan??
PostPosted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 3:28 pm 
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doppelflinten wrote:
Yes, I've also seen a number of the little side lever SxS's with various makers' names on them. Some Basque, some Italian and some Belgian but, I'm inclined to believe that only the ones with the AP maker's code are marked as El Fasian. Perhaps other SGW forum members can confirm or refute this theory. How about it....show us your El Fasian maker's marks!


Actually, I can help with that. I can recall handling a number of these little .410 poacher's guns, marked El Faisan, not made by Pedro Arosa Aguirre. I've seen these guns marked as made by Felix Sarasqueta, Ignacio Ugartechea, and an Italian maker whose name escapes me. Nor is the 'El Faisan' marking limited to poacher's guns - I've handled SxS BLNE guns that were so marked. One of the BLNE guns was a 20 gauge, marked as APM (Amadeo Pintado, AKA Armas Parkemy).

It's been my experience, FWIW, that 'El Faisan' is just a marketing name that's been used by different makers on different kinds of shotguns. Alas, if the Spanish arms makers have any consistency, it's in the absence of consistency. There are even cases in which handguns made in Spain may appear sans any evidence of proof!

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 Post subject: Re: El Faisan??
PostPosted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 5:04 pm 
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Kyrie wrote:
..... if the Spanish arms makers have any consistency, it's in the absence of consistency.


Amen.


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 Post subject: Re: El Faisan??
PostPosted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 7:21 pm 
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Hmmmmmm.......it seems as if the Basque gunmakers predated the Chicoms by a few decades regarding the free usage of model and trade names employed by others. This reminds me of the little spat that Beretta had with General Motors when GM named a Chevy model, "Beretta" a number of years ago. As the story goes, Beretta should have threatened to retaliate by naming a cheap "Saturday Night Special" as the Beretta Chevrolet.

It would be interesting to identify all of the different firms that used the "El Fasian" label on their wares. Looks like I'll have to update my data.

Thanks for the input.



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 Post subject: Re: El Faisan??
PostPosted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 7:22 pm 
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Gentlemen.

I’ve alluded to Spanish pistols without commercial proof marks, with commercial proofs, with military acceptance stamp and no commercial proof, and with both commercial proof and military acceptance. I thought folks might be interested in examples, so here we go...

All the pistols pictured below are chambered for the 9x23 mm Largo.

This is a Llama ‘Extra’:

Image

Note the complete absence of commercial proof and government acceptance stamps.

For comparison, here is another Llama ‘Extra’, with commercial proof:

Image

This is an early Astra model 400:

Image

According to Antaris’ very fine ‘Astra Pistols’, delivered to the Arms Division, Army Ministry, in 1922. Note the complete absence of commercial proof, and the early military acceptance stamp (top, front, of trigger guard). This gun was made when Astra was still Esperanza y Unceta, before Esperanza left the company. Here is a close up of the company crest at the time the pistol was made:

Image

This is a Star Model Super, with both commercial proof and the late military acceptance stamp (the circled letter ‘I’ above the center commercial proof stamp):

Image

Here is a close up of the proof/acceptance stamps:

Image

Also note the ‘ET 020117’ Spanish Army property number.

So there we are; examples of no proof or acceptance, military acceptance only, and military acceptance with commercial proof.

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 Post subject: Re: El Faisan??
PostPosted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 7:31 pm 
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One thing about Kyrie and Chorizo: They are factually consistant. :D

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 Post subject: Re: El Faisan??
PostPosted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 7:38 pm 
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doppelflinten wrote:
Hmmmmmm.......it seems as if the Basque gunmakers predated the Chicoms by a few decades regarding the free usage of model and trade names employed by others. This reminds me of the little spat that Beretta had with General Motors when GM named a Chevy model, "Beretta" a number of years ago. As the story goes, Beretta should have threatened to retaliate by naming a cheap "Saturday Night Special" as the Beretta Chevrolet.


Actually, I think the Spanish were paragons of rectitude when it came to trademarks and patents. At least within the constraints (giggle) of Spanish law, which was very different from US law. Spain produced a great many revolvers marked ‘Smith& Wesson’, but did so legally – under Spanish law.

If we were giving prized for fast and loose with trademarks, I’d nominate the former East Germans. After the Soviets had pretty much looted their zone of occupied Germany bare, the East Germans combined whatever shotgun making tooling was left and moved it all into the Ernest Thalmann Werke to make shotguns. Which they shamelessly stamped with the names of companies ‘gone west’, such as Merkel, Sauer & Sohn, and Simson. With the fall of the WARSAW PACT I suspect most shotguns marked Merkel now in the US are not genuine Merkels :shock:

Continuing the joke about Chevy and Spain, It took Chevy a little while to understand why the Chevy Nova wasn’t a good seller in Spanish speaking countries...

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 Post subject: Re: El Faisan??
PostPosted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 7:51 pm 
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ET stands for Ejercito de Tierra. Literally "Ground Forces"

Besides the No Va (it doesn't go) there was the Mazda "La Puta" ... the whore; the Mitsubishi "Pajero" a crude way of saying male masturbation; and the ever popular Nissan "Moco" .... booger.

The Japanese have a penchant for naming things because they like the sound of the words, you ought to have seen some of the funny things I saw in Japan and the names of Japanese products in English. My favorites: On a menu in a bar: "Special cocktails for the ladies with nuts." Or the wonderful coffee called "Sh*t"; I never tried it because I wasn't sure if that was the taste or that is what it made you do.

Check out this fine t-shirt:
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 Post subject: Re: El Faisan??
PostPosted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 8:17 pm 
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chorizo wrote:
ET stands for Ejercito de Tierra. Literally "Ground Forces"


Cannot forget the Spanish Air Force:

Star Model S, 9x17 mm Corto:

Image

Star Model A, 9x23 mm Largo:

Image

My wife used the Model S when she qualified for her armored car personel certification. By the last part of the live fire qual (draw and fire, 18 rounds, minimum 2 reloads, in 90 seconds) her blood was up so much that she shot that section in 24 seconds. The fellow standing next to me watching leaned over and asked, 'Does that thing have a selector switch?' while my wife looked over her shoulder and asked 'Did I finish in time?! Did I fnish in time?!'

I wasn't sure she was out of ammo, so I didn't dare laugh.

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 Post subject: Re: El Faisan??
PostPosted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 8:31 pm 
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You guys got me started. I promise after this no more thread drift! I got to include a picture from my favorite japanese website: Engrish.com

For those days when you just haven't eaten enough crap at work:

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 Post subject: Re: El Faisan??
PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2010 3:59 pm 
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Kyrie wrote:
If we were giving prized for fast and loose with trademarks, I’d nominate the former East Germans. After the Soviets had pretty much looted their zone of occupied Germany bare, the East Germans combined whatever shotgun making tooling was left and moved it all into the Ernest Thalmann Werke to make shotguns. Which they shamelessly stamped with the names of companies ‘gone west’, such as Merkel, Sauer & Sohn, and Simson. With the fall of the WARSAW PACT I suspect most shotguns marked Merkel now in the US are not genuine Merkels :shock:


Speaking of which, here may be a case in point:

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubb ... Post196862

The pictures aren't very good, but those look like East German proofs to me, and I don't believe Simson reformed until circa 1958. Lots of folks have spent Simson (and Merkel) dollars for Thalmann guns :(

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 Post subject: Re: El Faisan??
PostPosted: Sun Jul 25, 2010 10:07 pm 
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Kyrie-
So, to avoid spending Merkel dollars for a Thalmann gun, one looks for East German proof marks?

Have you any other obvious inspection points for these deceptively-marked guns for us easily-hoodwinked types?

Thanks.
--Bob


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