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 Post subject: Remington Versamax Autoloading Shotgun
PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 2:37 pm 
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Does anyone have any information about the new Remington Versamax autoloading shotgun? I've heard about it from other INTERNET sites and have found very little information about it presently. Any insight would be appreciated. Hopefully Randy may have heard something about this shotgun.


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 Post subject: Re: Remington Versamax Autoloading Shotgun
PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 2:42 pm 
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I would like more information as well, like can it accept different barrels, etc.


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 Post subject: Re: Remington Versamax Autoloading Shotgun
PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 2:54 pm 
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That's the 10 yr. old design they have been sitting on. I have no idea if this is it or not.

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 Post subject: Re: Remington Versamax Autoloading Shotgun
PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 3:13 pm 
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Thank you for the information Randy. That drawing may be it.This part is amazing... I called Remington yesterday and asked about the Versamax and nobody knew anything about it. I called today and the CS person I spoke with told me it is a 2011 model shotgun. I am told it is nothing like any autoloader they have presently. I told the CS person that hopefully this shotgun works as advertised and that they need to pay more attention to detail as in polishing receivers,barrels,etc. in their present product line.
Thank you again for the info.


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 Post subject: Re: Remington Versamax Autoloading Shotgun
PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 4:04 pm 
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MSRP $1599..........if they think they can compete with Benelli, Beretta, and Browning they are crazy !!!

They would be much better in the $700-$900 range competing with Franchi, Stoeger, Mossberg, and Win.


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 Post subject: Re: Remington Versamax Autoloading Shotgun
PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 9:12 pm 
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I dunno, could they actually do it right? Sure...

But it would take a considerable amount of self examination with an acknowledgement that past behavior was so focused on profitability that their quality (and accordingly brand) suffered.

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 Post subject: Re: Remington Versamax Autoloading Shotgun
PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 3:15 am 
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pashotgunner wrote:
Thank you for the information Randy. That drawing may be it.This part is amazing... I called Remington yesterday and asked about the Versamax and nobody knew anything about it. I called today and the CS person I spoke with told me it is a 2011 model shotgun. I am told it is nothing like any autoloader they have presently.



Well PA,

It is patented, U. S. Patent Number 6,256,921 filed in 1999, granted July 10, 2001, so you can look up and digest the complete patent if you'd like. So, it has been in the works or on the backburner for a good long while. "Like nothing they have" would sound more plausible as applied to another inertia gun. A Franchi I-12 with the old Nova 1-piece stock is what it sounds like to me.

What exactly Cerebrus or "Freedom Group" might , or might not be doing I really have no idea. I suppose people have their own opinions as to what "Remington" is supposed to mean. Terms like "Big Green" I guess are supposed to mean something-- I have no idea what, exactly, but folks like cozy old terms without definition.

The idea that a new shotgun will be out July-August doesn't make a lot of sense. Even the doomed 105 Cti and the equally doomed 105 Cti II was given the benefit of heavy-handed promotion. The Remington brand has been not-so quietly exiting the shotgun market. Dumping the whole Spartan Gunworks, turning the 870 into an essentially unfinished gun, then competing with their own low-end 870s with Chinese H & R Pardners doesn't make tremendous sense. Remington hasn't had a successful new shotgun since 1963. Forty-seven years is a long time to run on empty. Back then, very few people were familiar with Beretta, Benelli, compared to today. Pulling the plug on Spartan Gunworks, flailing attempts like the Sabatti "Premier O/U" that did nothing, the 105 Cti twins, and now the "NitroMag 887" - - - really, just what is the strategy?

It is hardly fair to condemn (or praise) a vaporware gun. What is fair is a slight amount of skepticism. Sure, "past performance is not necessarily indicative of future results.***" But, it is more often than not.

The Vinci is a very successful model and is just beginning its product life. The same can be said for the Maxus, still very new in the product cycle. And, the same can be said for the A400 Unico-- still very new in the cycle. None of these three guns are in their absolute final forms, none have made it to 20 gauge yet, and all can be expected to be varied, improved, tweaked, etc. Some might not go for Vinci looks, A400 prices, or have a particular preference for one, the other, or all. But that is personal preference, little else. All three are winners, all three work very well, and all three have their followings already. All of them will be varied and improved.

Against this, it is going to be tough to come up with a real head-turner. Browning knows how to make a gas gun, Beretta sure does as well, and inertia is the notion . . . Benelli (and Franchi and Stoeger) have a very large lead. And what of the Argo/M4 Super 90 XM1014 Benelli gas gun? That has never been offered in hunting or clays configurations, they haven't even tried as of yet.

Whatever testing cycle let the 105 Cti's and the 887 out the door really has to be scrapped. The old "fool me once" stuff starts to stick after a while.

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 Post subject: Re: Remington Versamax Autoloading Shotgun
PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 5:20 am 
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I agree with alldrakes, a new auto in the 700 to 900 dollar price range makes more sense. I don't know that the market needs another O/U priced autoloader but I dare say the profit margins on this new crop of autos is quite good and very tempting for Remington. The new 1911 R1 pistol they just introduced looks good in print and is priced in the middle of the 1911s range at about 650 dollars retail. We'll see how it does.
I'd sure like to see Remington adopt an old slogan" The quality goes in before the name goes on". and live by it. Don't know that Cerberus would permit that,"Profits first" is their mantra. I'd very much like to see Remington become a successful, quality driven American company. It can be done. Hope it's not to late.

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 Post subject: Re: Remington Versamax Autoloading Shotgun
PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 12:14 pm 
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RandyWakeman wrote:
Remington hasn't had a successful new shotgun since 1963. Forty-seven years is a long time to run on empty.


I'm not sure they've had a successful new anything since 1963. Almost everything in their lineup originated from the late forties to the early sixties.

It's funny, you look at the string of innovation they had coming out of WWII, the 870, the 7XX rifles, the new pump centerfires and rimfires, then the 1100, Remington basically doomed Winchester by coming out with great product that they could make at a profit. It took winchester a couple decades to realize they were dead, but dead they were.

Now Remington has been sitting on their laurels for a long long time, while newcomers nibble away at the market, mix in some questionable quality of late, and personally I'm not betting on Big Green for the long haul.

Maybe they can save themselves by making ARs and 1911s.


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 Post subject: Re: Remington Versamax Autoloading Shotgun
PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 7:05 pm 
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$1600 is going to be steep. I hope they compete with Beretta. I want them to compete if their autoloader has the wherewithal and is a shotgun that really is up to par with the new hardware coming out from Beretta, Browning, etc.. If you take into account the guns Randy has listed, they are some great dependable and all around successful shotguns, and I hope Remington competes. Looking at their track record, I hope a flop doesn't happen. The 700-900 range seems ideal, But Beretta occupies that realm too. It's hard to find a gun better than the Beretta 390 for $550, and I am continuing to see 391's in that realm as well. Is this gun going to be "better" than the older Beretta models? From the design Randy has said might commence, I'm not liking the plan. I kinda wish it were going to be a gas operated gun, but we will see. As long as it isn't some new 1100 derivative in a new uniform, I'll be excited to check it out.

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 Post subject: Re: Remington Versamax Autoloading Shotgun
PostPosted: Thu Jul 15, 2010 6:46 am 
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The MSRP on a plain jane 1100 Competition is almost $1700.

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 Post subject: Re: Remington Versamax Autoloading Shotgun
PostPosted: Thu Jul 15, 2010 10:07 am 
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I dunno.... I was raised within "spitting distance" of Ilion, and Remington made EXCELLENT guns back then. My earliest guns consisted of a M-31 pump and an M-14 pump rifle (in .32 rem) - both of which allowed me to take home a great deal of protein.

Then, in the late '40s and '50s, they started to use (horrors) ... METAL STAMPINGS and gave us lower prices. These worked FINE, and kept prices low. ANd they were WELL DESIGNED firearms... cartridges, too!! ANd I have an old original 1100 - wouldn't trade it for the world!! But the NEWER 1100s and 11/87s seem to have more than their share of problems...

But LATELY, they seem to have forgotten quality finishes, polishing, bluing, barrel dtraightness, wood and finish, and are trying to appeal to the masses ... And we see a step down in quality.

They lost me as a fan and customer.

BobK

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 Post subject: Re: Remington Versamax Autoloading Shotgun
PostPosted: Thu Jul 15, 2010 12:38 pm 
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I sure like their shotgun shells......EG


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 Post subject: Re: Remington Versamax Autoloading Shotgun
PostPosted: Fri Jul 16, 2010 1:25 am 
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Good shotguns are welcomed, regardless of the source. As for a $1599 3-1/2 inch autoloading waterfowler, street price on a Maxus Stalker today is about a thousand, with Xtrema2's and SBEII's at a bit more, but they already well-known products with their own respective followings.

It was the 870 that was initially received weakly and was called the "tin can gun." Not so with the 1100 that enjoyed immediate, lasting success. Dupont cut Remington loose back in 1993 and the spiral escalated from there.

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 Post subject: Re: Remington Versamax Autoloading Shotgun
PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 3:43 pm 
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Sounds like the new Versamax will be in Illinois at the Trap championships in August.


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 Post subject: Re: Remington Versamax Autoloading Shotgun
PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 4:20 pm 
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talked to the Remington rep at the gunshop today and I will sell it like I bought it. Versamax scheduled to br out August 15th. $1599 for the camo and $1399 for the black and the reps sincere hopes it doesn't turn into another 105. Take it with however many grains of salt you wish.


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 Post subject: Re: Remington Versamax Autoloading Shotgun
PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 5:02 pm 
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they already well-known products with their own respective followings.


You know, as much as people complain about the prices of some guns, I figure that a proven gun is worth at least a 20% price premium -- maybe more. The companies on the higher end of the production shotgun market have earned their places over many decades. For example, people trust that, if they buy a Browning O/U, it won't fall apart after a few thousand rounds, because there are many examples of such that have gone through hundreds of thousands. A new gun, even if it's a better gun, will not fetch as many buyers right away, at the same price.

Translation: if you come out with something new, and your reputation is as horrible as Remington's has become, you'd best avoid the delusion that you can price the thing up there with the premium players.

Remington is a name that newbies find attractive. I know. The first shotgun I bought was a Remington. But the discerning end of the market that spends that kind of money on an autoloader? Remington doesn't have a good reputation among that demographic. A lot of us who can be persuaded to pay an above-average price for a gun aren't rich -- we fill our piggy banks and expect to get a damn nice gun for our money.

IOW talk to me in 10 years. If there are a million in circulation, and they've all done well with 5-figure round counts, then maybe I'd consider paying as much for a new Remington design as I would for the guns that are a known quantity, and have proven themselves. The 870 is a proven gun. The name Remington on the side isn't what makes it so.

I do hope that there is some serious competition for the current big players. Even if I buy a Beretta, I don't want to have to buy it in a marketplace where the 3 Bs can charge almost whatever they want for an autoloader, and get it. We're getting there, now! So I'm cheering for Remington -- but I don't think that a $1599 shotgun is going to be a Benelli-beater unless the dollar drops so low that Italian guns double in price overnight. And even then, Beretta (hence also Benelli, Franchi) has manufacturing capacity in the US, should they want to use it... Same with FN/Browning/Winchester.

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 Post subject: Re: Remington Versamax Autoloading Shotgun
PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 9:26 pm 
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Those who have such disdain for Remington I doubt you will buy their gun if it was 50 dollars. If they price it at, say $800 and the 3 B's are all at $1000 plus then most people will think that it is a sub-standard gun. Will a brand new gun from Remington priced at 1500 sell like a house a fire right out of the gate? No. But if it is good it will sell some and better for Remington to sell a few and build a good name for this gun than to sell a ton and hope that most of them work out. Me personally, I am going to give it a fair shake when it comes out. I don't buy anything new right away. I hope it works.


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 Post subject: Re: Remington Versamax Autoloading Shotgun
PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 3:10 am 
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I'd agree with Randy's premise. Given the initial successes of the newest offerings from Benelli, Beretta and Browning and Remington's flailing of late, I'd be amazed if they can put out something that can compete for any length of time beside the Vinci, A400 or Maxus or even those three makers previous generations of autoloaders.

Remington/"Big Green"/Cerebrus/Freedom has fouled its own nest in regard to both R&D and quality control. It has fallen decades behind.

I can't say that I'll particularly be cheering for them, because it seems they've lost both the directions and the boot and are now just pouring piss all over themselves. The 870 was obviously a heck of a durable, workable and popular design. Yet the Expresses they are now churning out are, as Randy described, basically unfinished shotguns. They've even managed to F'up the good things they have in their catalog. Embarrassing.

I've got the Cubs in my life. I don't need Remington, too.

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 Post subject: Re: Remington Versamax Autoloading Shotgun
PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 7:58 am 
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You can "be the first" to know: http://www.remington.com/pages/InformationRequestform.aspx?type=newshotgun. As far as Barry's statement that a proven gun is worth at least a 20% price premium -- maybe more-- I couldn't agree more. An autoloading shotgun itself is a miniscule part of total hunting and shooting costs and a shotgun that you have to buy twice is no bargain to anyone. The "Any Load" notion is suddenly a tired premise, particularly coming on the heels of the Beretta A400.

First quarter 2010, Freedom Group's sales dropped 21% from a year ago. S & W increased about 5%, Ruger increased about 8%. Olin just reported that Winchester Ammunition achieved the highest second quarter segment earnings in its history, and the second best quarterly earnings ever. Make of that what you will.

Whatever Cerberus thinks "Remington" is-- it is not considered a premium brand compared to Benelli, Beretta, and Browning. Whatever the Versamax turns out to be (it sounds more like a washing machine than a shotgun) it is priced above both the Benelli Super Black Eagle American and the Maxus.

If there is a rash of people trying to dump their lightly used Vinci's, Maxus, or A400s out there-- I've missed it. Gunbroker and so forth doesn't reflect that at all. All three have track records by now. None of the three was exactly created from nothing. The Browning Gold / Silver / Winchester SX2 / SX3 has been a successful series for a long while. You can't look at an A400 for very long without seeing Xtrema. The Vinci is the most radical of the bunch, but the function is still the Bruno Civolani action that Civolani created in the 1960s. You might like one better than the rest, you might like all of them, but if you want a proven autoloader there is likely at least one variant of inertia, activ valve, or Xtrema/Franchi action that gets the job done for you. Or even 390 / 3901 or 391 variants on top of that. The "newest" of all these actions would be the A400, but not exactly new if you consider the Variopress and Variomax Franchis that preceded the Xtrema by quite a few years.

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