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 Post subject: Re: grizzly vs slug or grizzly vs bullet
PostPosted: Sun Jul 25, 2010 10:27 am 
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Prior to this "event" there hadn’t been an attack by a grizzly for ninety-three years in what is now Denali. Six million acres, ninety-three years, and no grizzly attack. Surprised?

What you don't hear are the details. As in a young bear cub shot several times in the back. Ever get the weight on that bear? Autopsy?

Ninety-three years later, a dim-bulb sees a bear and empties his handgun at it. Mhh-hmm. Bear attack. Says who? Happens every ninety-three years, does it? The most popular national park in Alaska, upwards of 400,000 visitors a year. After ninety-three years, a grizzly bear attack.

And the non fact-checked story runs, saying "His decision and the new law likely saved his life and that of the female hiker accompanying him." Likely? Not very likely there was even an attack to begin with, much less any quick-thinking or life-saving going on. Expect some low-end bull to try to keep yourself out of trouble every now and then. Like every ninety-three years.

According to the statement from park officials, "he fired approximately nine rounds in its general direction." No substitute for precise shot placement, is there? And they find the bears body
"approximately 100 feet from the pistol casings."
Anyone who has ever killed a bear can tell you that you can hear it die a quarter mile away. One you hear it, you'll never forget it. So now, this first attacking bear in ninety-three years runs into the bushes and dies thirty yards away . . . without the loud, obvious groans when it dies. Not only do we have the first attacking bear in ninety-three years, we also have the exceedingly rare bear able to run away then die quietly.

The story has more holes than Carter had liver pills.

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 Post subject: Re: grizzly vs slug or grizzly vs bullet
PostPosted: Sun Jul 25, 2010 5:52 pm 
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Last edited by chucka on Sat Jan 01, 2011 5:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: grizzly vs slug or grizzly vs bullet
PostPosted: Sun Jul 25, 2010 7:17 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: grizzly vs slug or grizzly vs bullet
PostPosted: Tue Jul 27, 2010 9:40 am 
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Last edited by chucka on Sat Jan 01, 2011 5:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: grizzly vs slug or grizzly vs bullet
PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 4:42 am 
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I don't know alot about the grizzly but here is my $.02. In 1967, I hunted in Alaska for these bears and took my only one with a .375 H&H magnum from about 100 yards with one shot. The animal ran about 100 yards away from us. In my opinion, the smallest griz caliber should be a .338 Winchester or a .300 magnum. Bullet choice is important, too. You will need a bullet design that will give goog penitration through muscle and heavy bone. I'd really think twice about shooting one with a slug at close range.

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 Post subject: Re: grizzly vs slug or grizzly vs bullet
PostPosted: Wed Jul 28, 2010 11:45 pm 
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Location: Arkansas Ozark Mountains
For waht it's worth see link below:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fa ... th_America

My friend is listed (but it was a Black Bear):

Colin McClelland, 24, male August 10, 1993 Black Killed as a result of a crushed skull after a 240-pound (110 kg) male Black bear tore open the door to his trailer and attacked at Waugh Mountain, Colorado. The bear was later killed by game wardens.[19]

Never let your guard down around ANY bear!!! When I lived in Wyoming I hunted with a .375 H&H because I hunted in grizzly areas. At a friend’s cabin we carried a Breneke slug loaded shotgun to the out-house because of run ins with the local grizzlies at unwelcome times. Now days it would be loaded with Dixie Terminator Slugs. No, no one ever had to use the shotgun but it sure beat being armed with nothing but a roll of toilet paper.

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 Post subject: Re: grizzly vs slug or grizzly vs bullet
PostPosted: Thu Jul 29, 2010 12:38 am 
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thanks for the link papa. thats harsh, sorry to to hear about your friend. the statistics just go to show that bears are unpredictable. Here in alberta the cougars and bears are pushing farther and farther out of the rockies. most likely from lack of resources, hunting pressure and other human activities and developement. the last 2 years in a row 2 seperate hunters have been killed by grizzlys who had made there way down out of the mountains, in the same area actually. out of the wild and into our backyard. used to live in bc and heard many stories, of cougars neway, snatching toddlers out of their backyards.

from what i gather, ill defenitely be keeping a slug gun close when out fishing on shore. and a rifle handy if possible. i dont want to kill a bear, just would prefer not to die.

ur legally allowed to kill coyotes and allow their hides to go to waste. theyre beautiful wild dogs, could be tamed. i love hunting, not only is it sport and hobby and food, its just something i gotta do. but if u stop and do a lil bird watching for a minute, u can really appreciate nature. but... i couldnt live off vegetables, like to bbq to much haha.

check this link out, makes me feel bad about shooting one, despite the fact they are a nuisance, threat to livestock, pets and even known to kill people.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HcQDZWHr ... re=related


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 Post subject: Re: grizzly vs slug or grizzly vs bullet
PostPosted: Thu Jul 29, 2010 7:23 am 
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Last edited by chucka on Sat Jan 01, 2011 5:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: grizzly vs slug or grizzly vs bullet
PostPosted: Thu Jul 29, 2010 8:24 am 
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Joined: Tue Jan 12, 2010 8:28 am
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I just watched the Fox report and their interview with a bear expert. A director of a zoo that spends time in Glacier. Amusing. People that are into the “the warm and fuzzy, we can live with the bears and everyone should have one in their backyard philosophy”, just want have it that bears are dangerous. “ I don’t understand it.” “This is very rare.” “Bear country is still a great place to walk around.” I know what happened. Man met bear and bear decided to kick the crap out of a bunch of people. That option is always available for a large predator, and you never know when they will decide to exercise the option. It is true that if you stay in your house or car, it want likely happen. That is if you don’t stop the car. A bear can demolish a car.

He should tell the parents of a child pulled out of tent last year in a Utah Forest Service campground that he “doesn't know about” how rarely this happens. The father woke up and the child was gone. He went looking for him and found what was left of the body. Now, how anyone can sleep through such a thing is another question. This was a black bear.

In the vast national forests surrounding the three parks, elk and deer hunters encounter and kill grizzlies frequently. In 2008, hunters killed eight grizzlies in self-defense near Yellowstone. That is, the ones that were reported. These cases are always intensely investigated to determine if they were justified, and I don’t know of any that were found to be unjustified. I haven’t seen any numbers for 2009. Hunters get out of their house and cars.


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 Post subject: Re: grizzly vs slug or grizzly vs bullet
PostPosted: Thu Jul 29, 2010 12:31 pm 
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If this is just for bear defense rather than bear hunting, I'd probably go with the slug over the bullet unless you could use a side arm which you can't. Something like either a brennekke dangerous game slug or a Dixie Terminator. You can't really get away with saying a bear is a threat until he is fairly close so something with a short barrel that can be aimed or even pointed quickly would be preferable. I was in AK a few years back visiting my brother and I saw either side arms or shotguns for bear defense while I was there. My brother has a ruger redhawk in 454 casual which he refers to as his fishing partner. I carried a S&W in 44mag while fishing.

Avoiding them is the best defense but there is always a chance that won't work in areas that a heavily populated with bears. Of course, I have heard the bear spray works but I would sure hate to find out that it doesn't.


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 Post subject: Re: grizzly vs slug or grizzly vs bullet
PostPosted: Sun Aug 08, 2010 2:52 pm 
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Like others have said if your hunting them you can't beat a rifle. As of yesterday I am now the proud owner of an original 12 ga. model Ithaca Deerslayer III with the fully rifled bullbarrel. I may get the barrel shortened to 20” to make it faster to handle. In bear country I am never without my Garrett .44 Magnum loaded Ruger but for serious defense I will be carrying the Deerslayer loaded with Dixie’s Terminator .73 caliber heat treated hard cast 730 grain slugs. At close range they have the same measured penetration as a 416 Rigby firing a 400 grain Nosler bullet.

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 Post subject: Re: grizzly vs slug or grizzly vs bullet
PostPosted: Fri Nov 19, 2010 5:43 am 
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Honestly crap crap and more crap outta randy mouth. Look man last minute best stopping power on either grizzly or brown bear i would say a four pedal copper slug like 3 inch fedral vitial shok barnes expander big peace of copper that will stop him


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 Post subject: Re: grizzly vs slug or grizzly vs bullet
PostPosted: Wed Nov 24, 2010 1:36 pm 
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Have lived, worked, and hunted in grizzly country for 43 years.......Canadian northern westcoast. Wet, thick, and sometimes dangerous terra firma......
My opinion only.....for 'close in' bear protection.....slugged pump shotgun, short barrel, big magazine....
If you are hunting the big 'browns'........338 Win. or larger.....whatever you can shoot fast and comfortably......I have guided many bear hunters.......
Fisheries officers and govt. personnel are issued 'defender' type shotguns....


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 Post subject: Re: grizzly vs slug or grizzly vs bullet
PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 12:19 pm 
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Location: Dawson Creek, BC
Up here in BC alot of people work in the bush doing forestry, silviculture, logging etc. etc. The people that I personally know that carry guns for protection usually pack shotguns over rifles. A short barreled shotgun is easier to carry and can take a fair bit of abuse. If you absolutely had to use it for bear protection I would rather have a pump shotgun loaded with 5 or 6 big a$$ slugs. If it was a life or death situation I would want to be able to shoot as quickly as possible.....


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 Post subject: Re: grizzly vs slug or grizzly vs bullet
PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2013 1:55 am 
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I've spoken with a guy who does this for a living in Alaska (put down dangerous bears, is a police officer in a rural area, I gather). He used to use an 870 with Brenneke's, and it did well. Now uses a SCAR H with DPX projectiles. .308. Says it works well.


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 Post subject: Re: grizzly vs slug or grizzly vs bullet
PostPosted: Sat Nov 23, 2013 10:56 pm 
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RandyWakeman wrote:
A high sectional density rifle bullet with controlled expansion with no doubt-- no contest.


Absolutely! There was a test done years ago in Alaska with shotguns and slugs. A grizzly beyond about 20' shot in the head with a one oz slug from a 12ga, will not stop and it will blame the headache on you! A heavy for caliber bullet will go on through from a lot farther. Big problem with a slug is lack of velocity. That said, while I was up there a lot of guy's carried cut down 12 ga pumps with the plug out for protection. needed to stop dangerous game is penetration from a relatively high velocity bullet. My though is that a shotgun with slugs will give you a false sense of security. No handgun is gonna give anywhere near the results of even a 30-06 with a 200gr bullet.

The best defense against bears like that is not putting yourself in a bad spot if you can, in the first place.


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 Post subject: Re: grizzly vs slug or grizzly vs bullet
PostPosted: Sun Nov 24, 2013 11:28 pm 
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Don Fischer wrote:
RandyWakeman wrote:
A high sectional density rifle bullet with controlled expansion with no doubt-- no contest.


Absolutely! There was a test done years ago in Alaska with shotguns and slugs. A grizzly beyond about 20' shot in the head with a one oz slug from a 12ga, will not stop and it will blame the headache on you! A heavy for caliber bullet will go on through from a lot farther. Big problem with a slug is lack of velocity. That said, while I was up there a lot of guy's carried cut down 12 ga pumps with the plug out for protection. needed to stop dangerous game is penetration from a relatively high velocity bullet. My though is that a shotgun with slugs will give you a false sense of security. No handgun is gonna give anywhere near the results of even a 30-06 with a 200gr bullet.

The best defense against bears like that is not putting yourself in a bad spot if you can, in the first place.

Slug...is a very vague term. It can mean a playdough soft remington slugger, or a brenneke. Which was this test with?


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 Post subject: Re: grizzly vs slug or grizzly vs bullet
PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 9:15 pm 
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I would choose a slug over a rifle bullet for close bear defense any day of the week


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 Post subject: Re: grizzly vs slug or grizzly vs bullet
PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2014 10:14 pm 
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Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2009 1:50 pm
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Location: Georgia
M4FAN wrote:
Don Fischer wrote:
RandyWakeman wrote:
A high sectional density rifle bullet with controlled expansion with no doubt-- no contest.


Absolutely! There was a test done years ago in Alaska with shotguns and slugs. A grizzly beyond about 20' shot in the head with a one oz slug from a 12ga, will not stop and it will blame the headache on you! A heavy for caliber bullet will go on through from a lot farther. Big problem with a slug is lack of velocity. That said, while I was up there a lot of guy's carried cut down 12 ga pumps with the plug out for protection. needed to stop dangerous game is penetration from a relatively high velocity bullet. My though is that a shotgun with slugs will give you a false sense of security. No handgun is gonna give anywhere near the results of even a 30-06 with a 200gr bullet.

The best defense against bears like that is not putting yourself in a bad spot if you can, in the first place.

Slug...is a very vague term. It can mean a playdough soft remington slugger, or a brenneke. Which was this test with?


Exactly! The common term "slug" is a misnomer. A standard Foster slug, like a Winchester Super X is made of dead soft lead and only penetrates around 15 inches or so in ballistic gelatin, although they will expand violently into a large lead "donut". Might be perfect for an antipersonnel round, or for a smaller bodied, thin skinned animal like a deer.

A Brenneke is designed much differently with a different alloy and overall design that exhibits controlled expansion without major deformation. They will also penetrate around 30 inches or so, in ballistic gelatin. I've read of reports where frontal shots were made on deer with Brenneke slugs. In one the slug entered the chest, traveled the length of the animal and exited the rear, braking the rear hip on the way out. Anything with penetration performance like that isn't to be scoffed at. On the other hand, the common soft Foster slugs will often fail to exit on a full on side shot. Different tools for different jobs. Pick the right tool...

And even with Brenneke you have several choices. Take the Magnum Crush, or Black Magic for example. Two very impressive loads!

And then we have the Dixie Terminator which is a 730 grain hard cast and heat treated slug at 1250 fps, and the Dixie IXL-DGS which is an 870 grain hard cast and heat treated slug at 1200 fps.

I recently read a test report on the Terminator that said, "At the Linebaugh seminar in Jackson, Ms. a few years back and I got to witness the Terminator slug in action and it is impressive. My 416 Rigby with a Federal factory load ammo with the 400 grain Nosler Partition was shot into the same media and penetrated 30" and left about a 1" diameter wound, the Terminator slug which is 730 grains and .730 diameter made for rifled slug barrels) penetrated 29" and blew a wound channel nearly 4" in diameter".

Here's a pic associated with the above quote:

Image



Many of these "test" we hear of aren't specific and just use the generic term "slug" as if they're all the same, but they aren't at all.

I seriously doubt that if a Grizzly was hit squarely in the brain cavity with a 2 oz (yes, the 870 grain Dixie load is right at TWO OUNCES) hard cast heat treated chunk of lead travelling at 1200 fps, from 20 feet, that it's just going to get pissed. Sure, a bad hit or glancing blow and anything can happen, but the same can be said of anything.

Make a good hit, to a vital region, with a projectile that's designed to penetrate deeply enough through thick hide and muscle, and has enough mass to break heavy bones to get to the vitals and the job will be done. Doesn't matter what you call the machine that's used to launch that projectile.

And if you REALLY want penetration, look at Brenneke's law enforcement line of slugs. The Maximum Barrier Penetration Magnum penetrates over 42 inches of ballistic gelatin!

Some impressive test results from their site:

http://www.brennekeusa.com/cms/fileadmin/BrennekeUSA/Law_enforcement/user_upload/Dokumente/Brenneke_Maximum_Barrier_Penetration_Slug_Information.pdf


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 Post subject: Re: grizzly vs slug or grizzly vs bullet
PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2014 3:02 pm 
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^^^^^^

What he said. Bullet construction and velocity make a difference. Would u rather be hit with a tennis ball or a baseball


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