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 Post subject: Belgian Shotgun Identification Guide
PostPosted: Thu Sep 16, 2010 3:03 pm 
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Belgian Shotgun Identification

The Banc d’Epreuves de Liege proved 233,526 double barrel smoothbore guns in 1889, the majority for export. In 1899 alone, the U.S. firms of Hartley & Graham and Simmons Hardware bought 90,000 shotguns, rifles, and handguns from Liege gunmakers. Most of the Belgian guns imported before WWI were not of high quality when new, and NO vintage shotgun should be fired, with any load, until examined by a double gun specialist smith.

Belgian makers
http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/a% ... s%20gb.htm

Maker’s marks
http://www.picturetrail.com/sfx/album/view/18490292

Belgian Trade names
http://damascus-barrels.com/Belgian_Trade_Marks.html

Proof Marks - Poincons Officiels du Banc D'Epreuves de Liege
http://www.picturetrail.com/sfx/album/view/17575181

Final proof is the crowned ELG mark.
The Perron (tower) indicates provisional blackpowder proof even on guns later voluntary proved with smokeless powder; which are marked with a Lion over PV. If there is no Lion over PV, the gun was NOT proved for smokeless powder.

The usual c. 1900 Belgian 12 gauge bore would be 18.4 mm = .724"
Conversion table - 1 millimeter = 0.0393700787 inches
http://www.convertunits.com/from/mm/to/inches

Date of Manufacture
NON POUR BALLE - choked unrifled bores used 1878 - 1897
1898 - 1910 – Bore in mm (22 cm from breech) and muzzle (choke constriction) appear next to each other after ‘choke’
1910 – 1924 – Bore in mm is over muzzle dimension

Prior to 1924 the gauge would be indicated within a diamond.
Post-1924 - A 12-70 in an Omega lying is the gauge and chamber length in mm., and would indicate the gun is chambered for 12ga 70mm - 2 3/4” length shells.
Please note that many Belgian guns will be chambered for:
2 1/2” - 63mm 20g,
2 9/16” - 65mm 16g,
and may be 2 5/8” 12g.

Date of Proof codesLettres Annales used after 1921

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Last edited by revdocdrew on Fri Dec 03, 2010 5:42 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Belgian Shotgun Identification Guide
PostPosted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 8:05 pm 
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Poincons Officiels du Banc D'Epreuves de Liege from "Trade & Hallmarks on Firearms in Belgium" Bruno Joos De Ter Beerst, 1998

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1 millimeters = 0.03937 inches
17.0 = .670"; 16.3 = .642"; choke constriction of .028" or 16g Light Full
18.0 = .709; 18.7 = .736"; choke constriction of .027" or Improved Modified
18.4 was the usual c. 1900 Belgian 12b = .724"
After 1924 the markings were "Choke" and bore only.
1 kilogram = 2.20462262 pounds 1.3555 Kg = 3 pounds.
May also be stamped '1K3555' after 1924 without the decimal.

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The Lion Rampant over PV was introduced for military rifles of 8mm & smaller in 1898 & then applied to the supplementary smokeless proof for shotguns in 1903. It was mandatory post-1924. Lion over SCH or EC were optional smokeless powder proofs used 1891-1924 for "Schultze" or "EC" powders.

Image

1853-1877 inspector's (controller's) marks were crowned rather than spangled.

PLEASE NOTE: Inspector's marks can not be used to establish date of manufacture; they were re-used over time and the significance of some has been lost.

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Richard Baxter (1615-1691), Directions Against Covetousness
"Be more careful to use what you have, than to get more."

Kingsley Brown "Shoot more, shop less."


Last edited by Drew Hause on Sat Feb 17, 2018 10:49 am, edited 5 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Belgian Shotgun Identification Guide
PostPosted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 8:43 am 
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Load data used 1897-1903

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12g Manufacture Liegeoise likely proved with Mullerite (stylized lion over M) for a service load of 2.70 grams POUDRE = 41.67 grains = 3 Dr. Eq. (42 grains). "E.C." No. 1 & "Schultze" were also 42 gr. = 3 Dr. Eq.
36 grams PLOMBE = 1 1/4 oz. shot

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_________________
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Richard Baxter (1615-1691), Directions Against Covetousness
"Be more careful to use what you have, than to get more."

Kingsley Brown "Shoot more, shop less."


Last edited by Drew Hause on Mon Jul 24, 2017 3:05 pm, edited 5 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Belgian Shotgun Identification Guide
PostPosted: Wed Aug 27, 2014 4:43 am 
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Joined: Tue Jun 24, 2014 3:30 am
Posts: 3
Location: Umeå, Sweden
Hi!

I have inherited a F.Dumoulin & Cie Liege of my grandfather.
It has been a little difficult to identify which year that the shotgun is made ..
And I hope to be able to use this fine weapon to hunt grouse in the future, just like my grandfather did.
Hope you can help me!

Klick on the link to see the markings on the shotgun.

regards Markus

https://www.dropbox.com/sc/0sf7osf1dtg1s3r/AABKOd3k4GaQV_ppAci4eWNka


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 Post subject: Re: Belgian Shotgun Identification Guide
PostPosted: Wed Aug 27, 2014 6:10 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2011 5:28 pm
Posts: 108
Markus, clearly your gun is from 1943, but look, you have used a 2011 old post.
Best regards


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 Post subject: Re: Belgian Shotgun Identification Guide
PostPosted: Sun Jul 23, 2017 3:57 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jan 27, 2011 3:35 pm
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Location: AZ but dreaming of KS
Belgian Service & Proof Load Pressures

Banc D'Epreuves Des Armes a Feu De Liege (Proof House for Firearms of Liege) 1906
https://books.google.com/books?id=5fxGA ... g=PA52&lpg
12g - about 1 1/4 oz. / 3 1/4 Dram Eq. (1220 fps).
(12g 5.8 grams = 89.5 grains = 3 1/4 Dram)
16g - about 1 oz. / 2 1/2 Dram Eq. (1165 fps).
20g - about 7/8 oz. / 2 1/4 Dram Eq. (1155 fps).
Powder was not specified, but appears to be a Black Powder No. 4

After the proof house revisions of 1924, a Certificat d’epreuve could be issued and specified:
“The pressure developed, measured by crusher type device , lower or equal to 600 kg per square centimeter for sizes 16, 12, 10, 8 & 4; 670 pounds per square inch for sizes 20, 24 and smaller.”
600 kg/cm2 = 8534 psi SERVICE pressure;
670 kg/cm2 = 9530 psi SERVICE pressure
+ 10-14% by piezoelectric transducer measurement.
20 g was PROVED at 1000 kg/cm2 = 14,223 psi
12g PROVED at 900 kg/cm2 = 12,801 psi
Transducer numbers for 20g would be close to 15,500 psi; 12g about 14,000 psi

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The Commission Internationale Permanente pour l'Epreuve des Armes à Feu Portatives standards were not ratified until 1969.
http://www.cip-bobp.org/homologation/en ... _type_id=7
Pressures are measured by transducers
12g 65mm and 70mm “standard proof” lead or steel (limited to no larger than 3.25 mm and max. fps 1,300) SERVICE pressure 740 BAR = 10,733 psi; Maximum statistical individual pressure 850 BAR = 12,328 psi; PROOF 930 BAR = 13,489 psi.
Both 65 and 70 mm 16g standard is SERVICE 780 BAR or 11,313 psi; PROOF 980 BAR or 14,214 psi.
Both 65 and 70 mm 20g standard is SERVICE 830 BAR or 12,038 psi; PROOF 1040 BAR or 15,084 psi.

_________________
http://sites.google.com/a/damascusknowl ... m/www/home

Richard Baxter (1615-1691), Directions Against Covetousness
"Be more careful to use what you have, than to get more."

Kingsley Brown "Shoot more, shop less."


Last edited by Drew Hause on Mon Jul 24, 2017 8:38 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Belgian Shotgun Identification Guide
PostPosted: Sun Jul 23, 2017 4:13 pm 
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Location: AZ but dreaming of KS
Lettre Annale / Date of Control marks can be difficult to decipher
Lower case cursive 'p' = 1937
Spangled B = controller's mark
Stylized lion over PV = Smokeless Proof
Crowned ELG = post-1893
12-70 in an Omega lying = post 1924 gauge and chamber length in mm.

Image

Les lettres de l'alphabet

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_________________
http://sites.google.com/a/damascusknowl ... m/www/home

Richard Baxter (1615-1691), Directions Against Covetousness
"Be more careful to use what you have, than to get more."

Kingsley Brown "Shoot more, shop less."


Last edited by Drew Hause on Mon Jul 24, 2017 3:22 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Belgian Shotgun Identification Guide
PostPosted: Mon Jul 24, 2017 8:36 am 
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Joined: Thu Jan 27, 2011 3:35 pm
Posts: 1330
Location: AZ but dreaming of KS
IF YOU HAVE A QUESTION ABOUT YOUR VINTAGE BELGIAN SHOTGUN, PLEASE START A 'NEW TOPIC'

_________________
http://sites.google.com/a/damascusknowl ... m/www/home

Richard Baxter (1615-1691), Directions Against Covetousness
"Be more careful to use what you have, than to get more."

Kingsley Brown "Shoot more, shop less."


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 Post subject: Re: Belgian Shotgun Identification Guide
PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2018 3:49 pm 
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Joined: Mon May 14, 2018 1:39 pm
Posts: 3
Hey I have a F. Dumoulin & Co. 12 gauge side by side with double hammers. It’s complete. It’s very old but I’d like to know more about it. I’m a ypunger collector/gun activist. I live in Tennessee and would love help on identifying this gun down to the year and place made. I’m very excited and can’t wait for some replies. Thank y’all for your help ahead of time! I will have to upload some pictures later when I get to my computer. I’m very excited about this gun because I think the serial number is 106. I can’t find any other mumbers on the gun other than the multiple proof markings that I will post later. Please someone let me know that they know about these Belgian doubles! Thank y’all again!




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