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 Post subject: Gaep Roll Crimper T1 to T4 ?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2010 4:24 pm 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2010 2:18 pm
Posts: 159
Location: Denmark - Randers
siarm has Gaep roll crimper for crown closure from T1 to T4, what are the difference?

http://www.siarm.com/product_info.php?c ... ts_id=1447

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 Post subject: Re: Gaep Roll Crimper T1 to T4 ?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2010 7:04 pm 
Diamond Grade
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Joined: Fri Jun 02, 2006 6:42 pm
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Location: The U.P.'s U.P.
HuntExplorer-

From the gaep web page:
  • BN1 Steel roll crimper for crimp closure with round edge and fast burning powders (24-28gr).
  • BN2 Steel roll crimper for crimp closure with round edge and normal burning powders (30-36gr).
  • BN3 Steel roll crimper for crimp closure with round edge and progressive burning powders (38-42gr).
  • BN4 Steel roll crimper for crimp closure with round edge and high progressive burning powders (44-56gr).

Approximate weight translation for non-metric readers:
24-28gr = 7/8 oz to 1-1/16 oz
30-36 gr = 1-1/20 oz to 1-1/4 oz
38-42 gr = 1-1/3 oz to 1-1/2 oz
44-56 gr = 1-9/16 oz to 2 oz

Image

Link to web page

--Bob


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 Post subject: Re: Gaep Roll Crimper T1 to T4 ?
PostPosted: Fri Oct 01, 2010 1:47 am 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2010 2:18 pm
Posts: 159
Location: Denmark - Randers
pitted bore wrote:
Approximate weight translation for non-metric readers:

I assume the translation is for lead loads?

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 Post subject: Re: Gaep Roll Crimper T1 to T4 ?
PostPosted: Fri Oct 01, 2010 3:00 am 
Crown Grade

Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2006 10:06 am
Posts: 2200
Location: UK, England, Britain
i think i`ve got the t3. i use it for everything.

the quality of the finish with these is awsome. it is a professional finish.


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 Post subject: Re: Gaep Roll Crimper T1 to T4 ?
PostPosted: Sat Oct 02, 2010 9:16 pm 
Diamond Grade
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Joined: Fri Jun 02, 2006 6:42 pm
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Location: The U.P.'s U.P.
HuntExplorer wrote:
pitted bore wrote:
Approximate weight translation for non-metric readers:
I assume the translation is for lead loads?

Bjarne-
I probably should have written "weight conversion". I simply multiplied grams X 0.035274 to find ounces (avoirdupois). It would make no difference if the material being weighed was lead, steel, copper, or paper.

I do not know whether the gram weights shown on the gaep page were for lead shot, steel shot, or something else.

--Bob


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 Post subject: Re: Gaep Roll Crimper T1 to T4 ?
PostPosted: Sun Oct 03, 2010 2:03 am 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2010 2:18 pm
Posts: 159
Location: Denmark - Randers
The difference from one model to another must be in the produced size of the roll crimp, thi higher the roll crimp is the smaller the load or how?

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 Post subject: Re: Gaep Roll Crimper T1 to T4 ?
PostPosted: Sun Oct 03, 2010 10:29 am 
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HuntExplorer wrote:
The difference from one model to another must be in the produced size of the roll crimp, thi higher the roll crimp is the smaller the load or how?

Bjarne-
I think you are correct. In the USA we would probably state "The deeper roll crimps are for lighter loads", or "The deeper roll crimps are for loads occupying less hull volume".

However, use of these crimpers is more complex than the description I posted above.

On the gaep.com web page, the descriptions written in Italian are NOT equivalent to the descriptions written in English. The descriptions in English omit much important information.

For example, the BN3 crimper.
The English description is:
"Steel roll crimper for crimp closure with round edge and progressive burning powders (38-42gr)."

The Italian description for the BN3 is:
"Bobina universale per chiusura stellare e tonda, adatta a polveri con combustione medio-lenta per caricamenti 38-42gr."

A translation of the Italian is:
"Universal spinning crimper for star and roll crimps, for powders with medium-slow combustion rates for loads of 38-42 grams."

The use with star (folded) crimps is not in the English description.

For the BN4 model , the description in Italian says it is for use with magnum cases. The description in English says nothing about this.

Some youtube videos show spinning crimpers being used with folded crimps:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eSOaEvDks-M

You should probably contact gaep, and give them data for the load or loads you wish to crimp: gauge/calibre, hull manufacturer, hull length, primer, powder type, amount of powder, wad type, type of shot (lead, steel, bismuth, tungsten), size of shot, and amount or weight of shot, and perhaps whether you want a roll crimp or folded crimp.

With this information, gaep can perhaps tell you which model of roll crimper you should use.

I hope this helps. Good luck.
--Bob


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 Post subject: Re: Gaep Roll Crimper T1 to T4 ?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 06, 2010 4:02 am 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2010 2:18 pm
Posts: 159
Location: Denmark - Randers
pitted bore wrote:
From the gaep web page:
  • BN1 Steel roll crimper for crimp closure with round edge and fast burning powders (24-28gr).
  • BN2 Steel roll crimper for crimp closure with round edge and normal burning powders (30-36gr).
  • BN3 Steel roll crimper for crimp closure with round edge and progressive burning powders (38-42gr).
  • BN4 Steel roll crimper for crimp closure with round edge and high progressive burning powders (44-56gr).

Approximate weight translation for non-metric readers:
24-28gr = 7/8 oz to 1-1/16 oz
30-36 gr = 1-1/20 oz to 1-1/4 oz
38-42 gr = 1-1/3 oz to 1-1/2 oz
44-56 gr = 1-9/16 oz to 2 oz

Image

Link to web page

To make sure we're not all confused :roll: I've just received a mail from Charles at GAEP that the specification is in grains of powder and not grams shot :)

Charles from GAEP wrote:
we suggest you to buy a crimper steel round edge no.2 for 32 grains and another crimper round edge no.3 for 37 grains

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 Post subject: Re: Gaep Roll Crimper T1 to T4 ?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 06, 2010 6:28 am 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2007 5:21 am
Posts: 164
Location: Australia
Would the one for magnum/slow powders form a deeper/stronger crimp to aid ignition? Just a guess


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 Post subject: Re: Gaep Roll Crimper T1 to T4 ?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 06, 2010 3:30 pm 
Diamond Grade
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Joined: Fri Jun 02, 2006 6:42 pm
Posts: 1454
Location: The U.P.'s U.P.
HuntExplorer wrote:
To make sure we're not all confused I've just received a mail from Charles at GAEP that the specification is in grains of powder and not grams shot

Charles from GAEP wrote:
we suggest you to buy a crimper steel round edge no.2 for 32 grains and another crimper round edge no.3 for 37 grains

Bjarne-

I reserve the right to be completely confused at any and all times.

Do you (or Charles at GAEP) know of a published and tested 12-ga load that uses 56 grains (3.63 grams) of powder, and would therefore require the use of a "crimper round edge no. 4"?

Thank you.
--Bob


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 Post subject: Re: Gaep Roll Crimper T1 to T4 ?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 06, 2010 3:45 pm 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2010 2:18 pm
Posts: 159
Location: Denmark - Randers
pitted bore wrote:
I reserve the right to be completely confused at any and all times.

Do you (or Charles at GAEP) know of a published and tested 12-ga load that uses 56 grains (3.63 grams) of powder, and would therefore require the use of a "crimper round edge no. 4"?

Thank you.
--Bob

Me too Bob :? :wink: but anyway it says 44-56 grains powder for BN4 roll crimp and you will here find a load with 52 grain https://www.ballisticproducts.com/VP70%20data.pdf
Loading steel burns lots of powder :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: Gaep Roll Crimper T1 to T4 ?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 07, 2010 8:27 am 
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Joined: Fri Jun 02, 2006 6:42 pm
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Location: The U.P.'s U.P.
Bjarne-
Thank you for the reference to the 52-grain load.

I still do not understand why Charles at GAEL stated that the listed weights for the crimpers (24-28gr, 30-36gr, 38-42gr, 44-56gr) were grains of powder.

Italians write all weights in grams.

Below is a table of reloading data from Gualandi, the manufacturer of fine wads. Powder weights are listed in grams. Shot weights are listed in grams.

The 12-gauge shot weights in the Gualandi table are correlated well with the range of weights given in the GAEL list.

If any other posters can help with interpreting this, I wish they would make a helpful suggestion.

It appears that the #2 and #3 crimpers would probably work for most reloads.

Good luck.
--Bob

For USA & other readers who use non-metric units:
CAL=gauge; 76=3"
INNESCO=primer; FORTE & MEDIO=strong and medium primer strength
POLVERE IN GR. PER CHIUSURA=powder in grams per shell
STELLARE=folded (star) crimp; DISCHETTO=roll crimp with plastic overshot disk; CARTONCINO=roll crimp with card overshot wad
BORRA IN PLASTICA=plastic wad
PIOMBO GRAMMI=lead shot weight in grams

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 Post subject: Re: Gaep Roll Crimper T1 to T4 ?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2010 3:59 pm 
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Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2010 2:18 pm
Posts: 159
Location: Denmark - Randers
I've just got my hands on a BN2 and a BN3, I've used the BN2 with the disc closure with good results for my steel loads

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 Post subject: Re: Gaep Roll Crimper T1 to T4 ?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 29, 2010 7:12 pm 
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Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2010 2:18 pm
Posts: 159
Location: Denmark - Randers
Forgot to give you some pictures of the results, the BN2 gives nice results with used shells

Image

Image

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 Post subject: Re: Gaep Roll Crimper T1 to T4 ?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 29, 2010 7:46 pm 
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So let me get this right, for each payload & powder burn speed you have to buy a different roll crimp head, that roll crimps to a different depth, after you buy the machine that these roll crimp heads fit.

You guys ever hear of a fold crimp? It is an amazing if not ingenious and superior way to close a shotshell.


I am Italian and very proud of my heritage, heck, Ferrari, Lamborghini, Ducati, Beretta, Perrazzi, just to name a few, with some excellent reputations and cutting edge engineering.

But this stuff...............

Barnum was right.

Sorry, guys but I couldn't help myself, Gaep roll crimpers are just this side of ridiculous. :oops: :oops:

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"Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and promoted by mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a piece of dung by the clean end."


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 Post subject: Re: Gaep Roll Crimper T1 to T4 ?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 29, 2010 11:25 pm 
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Location: The U.P.'s U.P.
Bjarne-
Thank you for returning to the forum to post the pictures of your reloaded shells. They probably perform as nicely as they look. Good for you.

- - - - - - - - - -
Mark-
It's not as bad as it appears. The relatively poor translation from Italian to English on the gaep web site is responsible for a lot of confusion.

The gael roll crimpers are manufactured like jewelry. Bugatti would have been proud.

You can mostly ignore the different burn speed and payload information. The No.2 crimper that Bjarne selected will probably crimp 90 percent of shotshell loads. For different payloads, the wad column can be adjusted so that a good crimp can be achieved with a given depth of roll crimp.

The different crimp depths that can be obtained with the different gael crimpers permit a bit more flexibility in adjusting wad columns than can be achieved with a fixed-depth and height folded crimp.

gael certainly knows about star crimps. Here's a 50-second video showing off their star-crimp results (with the most annoying music soundtrack ever heard):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pCJwgKilPC4

Some of their crimps, especially the roll crimps, can get pretty fancy. Here's another 50-second looksee with the same annoying music:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZvksG6Mk2J0

Like driving a Ferrari to get a gallon of milk, using the gael machines for reloading can transform a mundane experience. I'm sure the Italians make the reloading equivalent of a Fiat.

Here's one of their motorized machines at work (3.25 minutes with annoying soundtrack.)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UOyCwLw9gXc

The Italians must know a little about shotgunning. They've won more international trap gold medals than any other nation, including the USA.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olympic_trap#World_Championships.2C_total_medals

--Bob


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 Post subject: Re: Gaep Roll Crimper T1 to T4 ?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 29, 2010 11:42 pm 
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Well, they are nicely made items.

But roll crimps for me are a waste of effort. Roll crimps don't make loads anymore consistent than a properly formed fold crimp and a good part of the time the ballistic performance falls off. Not a tremendous amount, but any loss of performance when it can be easily avoided, doesn't make a lot of sense.

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"Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and promoted by mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a piece of dung by the clean end."


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 Post subject: Re: Gaep Roll Crimper T1 to T4 ?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 30, 2010 3:41 am 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2010 2:18 pm
Posts: 159
Location: Denmark - Randers
For target shooting I use factory steel loads (we are not allowed to use lead in DK) as they are performing well and for the cost of less than $0.20
For hunting I reload to get them both faster and heavier, the shown load is with 34 gram steel and gives v2 with 470 m/s – 1542 f/s for the cost of only $0.70, would probably be cheaper to load in US as the components are much cheaper

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 Post subject: Re: Gaep Roll Crimper T1 to T4 ?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 30, 2010 1:04 pm 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Tue Oct 03, 2006 10:00 am
Posts: 123
Location: Thessaloniki, GREECE
I use the C&P T2 (Cortini & Pezzotti) for roll crimping slug loads, that produce a crimp equal or better than factory roll crimped shells.
I've heard the same for the Gaep roll crimping tools.
Another use of these tools is to iron out the end of a fold crimped hull, especially when using new hulls. Results are the same. Loaded shells look like factory new or better.

Lefteris
http://europeancartridgeunlimited.com


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 Post subject: Re: Gaep Roll Crimper T1 to T4 ?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 30, 2010 1:07 pm 
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Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2010 1:42 pm
Posts: 1688
pitted bore wrote:
Bjarne-
Thank you for the reference to the 52-grain load.

I still do not understand why Charles at GAEL stated that the listed weights for the crimpers (24-28gr, 30-36gr, 38-42gr, 44-56gr) were grains of powder.

Italians write all weights in grams.

Below is a table of reloading data from Gualandi, the manufacturer of fine wads. Powder weights are listed in grams. Shot weights are listed in grams.

The 12-gauge shot weights in the Gualandi table are correlated well with the range of weights given in the GAEL list.

If any other posters can help with interpreting this, I wish they would make a helpful suggestion.

It appears that the #2 and #3 crimpers would probably work for most reloads.

Good luck.
--Bob

For USA & other readers who use non-metric units:
CAL=gauge; 76=3"
INNESCO=primer; FORTE & MEDIO=strong and medium primer strength
POLVERE IN GR. PER CHIUSURA=powder in grams per shell
STELLARE=folded (star) crimp; DISCHETTO=roll crimp with plastic overshot disk; CARTONCINO=roll crimp with card overshot wad
BORRA IN PLASTICA=plastic wad
PIOMBO GRAMMI=lead shot weight in grams

Image




gr is grains. g is grams.


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