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 Post subject: 12 Gauge SxS Slug Gun w/ Double Rifle Sights?
PostPosted: Mon Nov 08, 2010 10:48 am 
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Joined: Tue Sep 21, 2010 11:45 am
Posts: 6
I have a Rossi Squire Coach that has been trimmed to 20" barrels. I have been contemplating machining cross rails that attach to the center rib to allow elevational/windage adjustment for both 3/8" dovetailed rear notch and front sight beads. I moose hunt in Northern ontario and It would be useful to have for a trail gun with a 12/410 adapter in one barrel for grouse and perhaps a 12 gauge brenneke slug in the other for <50 yard ranges.

Has anyone attempted to compensate for non-regulated barrels of sxs's by applying independent rifle sights to each barrel? I am curious if anyone else has thought of or done this before!


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 Post subject: Re: 12 Gauge SxS Slug Gun w/ Double Rifle Sights?
PostPosted: Mon Nov 08, 2010 11:33 am 
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Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2007 3:34 pm
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Location: Nebraska
I've actually wondered how far off the barrels are regulated on my SXS and is one of the reasons I only use my SXS with shot. Have you tried shooting both barrels at a paper target and seeing how far off they are? They might not be as bad as you think. Excellent question. I'd love to know how they perform if you go this route.


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 Post subject: Re: 12 Gauge SxS Slug Gun w/ Double Rifle Sights?
PostPosted: Mon Nov 08, 2010 11:55 am 
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Joined: Tue Sep 21, 2010 11:45 am
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Preliminary measurements show about 1.125" separating centerline of bores at the chamber and approximately 0.90" at the end of the barrels so using simple ratios for yardage, 0.225" over 20" barrel (or 0.55 yards) = 20+" at 50 yards!. I have not yet field checked the gun to confirm this but if my math is correct I require some means to compensate for the non-regulation in the barrels. I will keep the project updated on the post. I have just ordered the cross members and then once machined and installed I will need to figure out elevations of rear sights and front beads and order those as well and then test with brennekes to see what kind of accuracy I can dial in!


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 Post subject: Re: 12 Gauge SxS Slug Gun w/ Double Rifle Sights?
PostPosted: Mon Nov 08, 2010 12:04 pm 
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You do realize that barrel regulation is NOT about making them parallel, right? If it were, you could buy a decent SxS for a lot less than the current going prices (no a Rossi wouldn't be in the "decent" category but that's a different question). Making two pipes parallel is easy with a laser and a jig. Regulation is not just making two pipes parallel -- it has to make them hit the same POI when the gun is actually being fired, i.e. when it's moving under recoil.

Recoil displaces barrels in 2 dimensions on a SxS, since barrels aren't centered. Note that bore-sighting a rifle is not the same as sighting in a rifle, and a rifle's barrel is centered. Also note than a SxS rifle costs even more than a SxS shotgun. Much of the reason for that comes down to regulating for the precisely-matched POI a rifle requires; a game shotgun can be off by an inch or two at 35 yards and nobody will notice. Not so with a rifle.

These barrels could be regulated perfectly, or not. Hard to say.

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 Post subject: Re: 12 Gauge SxS Slug Gun w/ Double Rifle Sights?
PostPosted: Mon Nov 08, 2010 12:16 pm 
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You are right. I do not understand about regulation beyond parallelness. I figured to allow for rifle sights on each barrel would be a great starting point to attempt decent slug accuracy at 50 yards or less. I must try with some other smoothbore slugs to understand how they perform taking into account total barrel regulation. As for the Rossi..... purely a utility firearm I found here in Canada for $200. Always had an affinity for multiple barrels and couldn't say no. Thanks for the post!


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 Post subject: Re: 12 Gauge SxS Slug Gun w/ Double Rifle Sights?
PostPosted: Mon Nov 08, 2010 12:41 pm 
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Due to the Rossi's price, one can't assume it was regulated worth a damn in the first place, that's all I was trying to say. :)

I still can't see how you'd dovetail a sight onto a shotgun barrel. It's quite thin. The rib is still the best place for a sight; just sight in one of the barrels with it, and ignore the sights while shooting shot (which is the proper way to shoot a shotgun anyway).

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 Post subject: Re: 12 Gauge SxS Slug Gun w/ Double Rifle Sights?
PostPosted: Mon Nov 08, 2010 1:27 pm 
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I was thinking of machining cross rails with grooves on the underside so that they would fit right onto the center rib and be perpendicular to it. On the top side would be a 3/8" dovetail slot also perpendicular to the barrels to allow the use of 3/8" dovetail sights. However you have me thinking...with such a small windage distance over 20" perhaps one adjustable sight on the rib at the rear could be utilized to sight in both barrels adequately enough withn the 50 yard range.


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 Post subject: Re: 12 Gauge SxS Slug Gun w/ Double Rifle Sights?
PostPosted: Mon Nov 08, 2010 1:35 pm 
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My Dad has a side by side double .58 caliber muzzleloading rifle. The way the sights are on it is that there is only on front bead on the rib. There are 2 flip up type v notch sights positioned about an inch or 2 apart near the recevier end on the rib. They say this is so you can have each sight sighted in for different loads, ie. one for a roundball and one for a conical. You could use the same setup but just sight in one rear sight for one barrel and one rear sight with the other barrel. I am not sure how quick this setup would be for follow up shots since you would have to flip down one sight after the first shot and flip the other one up before shooting the second barrel. Probably the easiest solution is the one above suggesting using the sights for one barrel and ignoring them when shooting shot through the other barrel. The double sights might work if you want to shoot slugs through both barrels though.


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 Post subject: Re: 12 Gauge SxS Slug Gun w/ Double Rifle Sights?
PostPosted: Mon Nov 08, 2010 3:16 pm 
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I have two old English double rifles that are based on a BP, round ball, all brass crimped cases in shotgun like calibers. One is a 28 bore by 4 inch and the other is a 12 bore by 2 1/2 inch. The 28br has both barrels rifled and the 12br has one smooth cylinder bore and one Paradox barrel with partialy rifled barrel. These are early hammerguns and are regulated to shoot both barrels at the same point (28br- 40 yards and the Paradox 12br seems to be at about 30 yards.

Double rifles and shotgun/rifles have been regulated to shoot at the same point with a specfic loading and a certain distance. If you switch loads the POI will usually change. Regulating a double gun of this type takes great skill and alot of time. That is why the good ones are very costly. That is why the sights are mounted on the center rib or a ramp.

In your case, once you have picked your load and distance, you will only need to adjust your POA and use a center(rib) mounted rifle style rear sight. Traditionaly double rifles had "flip up" sights thst were set for different distances or they had scopes.

If you really want a quality 12br SxS slug gun, Purdey is making a 12ga hammerless version and the Hull Company makes the 2 1/2" ammo for it. Be sure to bring your wallet, though! :lol: I may be wrong but I think that gun starts at about $50K.

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 Post subject: Re: 12 Gauge SxS Slug Gun w/ Double Rifle Sights?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 09, 2010 6:46 pm 
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I believe RBI makes a double 20 ga. shotgun with rifled bbls, that's regulated for todays ammo. I think it's about 4K, and the couple guys that i've talked to that own one, say they are very nice doubles.

DM


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 Post subject: Re: 12 Gauge SxS Slug Gun w/ Double Rifle Sights?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 10, 2010 7:47 am 
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Location: E. Rochester NY
Instead of conversation and theorizing, SHOOT the damned thing at a target to determine where it hits. MOST SXSs cross fire. SOME SXSs don't. It doesn't matter what brand or cost, and you won't know until you shoot it.

I have seen SXSs that cross-fired slugs by a foot at 20 yards. I have seen a very few SXSs that fired a nice, tight group from both barrels at 75 yards. (And brand or price tag did not seem to matter!! It was totally "random".)

BobK

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 Post subject: Re: 12 Gauge SxS Slug Gun w/ Double Rifle Sights?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 10, 2010 8:24 am 
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I have tried this idea - slugs from a SXS - with a number of different doubles, old and new - Ithaca, LeFever, Baikal. None would shoot the second barrel anywhere near the first at 50 yards.
I have had some success with an old Savage O/U. It had some damage to the barrels and was cut down to 22". It will shoot the bottom barrel right to POA at 50 yards and the top barrel about six to twelve inches higher, depending on the slug load. it shoots my own .690 LRBs quite nicely at that distance. Only the front bead so far, no rear sight.
Pete

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 Post subject: Re: 12 Gauge SxS Slug Gun w/ Double Rifle Sights?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 10, 2010 3:12 pm 
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Bob has a good plan there. I was surprised to find that my 3 1/2" 10ga Spanish SxS will shoot Federal Foster type slugs quite nicely at about 50 yards.

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 Post subject: Re: 12 Gauge SxS Slug Gun w/ Double Rifle Sights?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 10, 2010 7:37 pm 
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I would like to get out and try the sxs w/slugs. However ....being a young family man with work, 2 kids, sports travelling, etc. I just don't get a lot of time to do the hunting and shooting that I would like to. In the meantime if I find the barrels do not shoot close enough to the point of aim I was thinking that 2 skirted 1/8 beads approximately 3/8" apart on the rear rib would acomplish to things......1) allow for a quick sight down the middle by lining up all 3 beads in a row and 2) allow for parralel to barrel sighting by lining up the outside bead on either side to the front bead. It would also keep barrel alignment sights close to the rail to minimize any cant issues. I would however be looking down a sight line that was approximately 0.45" of center of each barrel. I quickly looked at the double barrel and I think this arrangement would definitely feel bettter than trying to line up with iron sights down the centerline of either barrel!


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 Post subject: Re: 12 Gauge SxS Slug Gun w/ Double Rifle Sights?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 11, 2010 9:19 am 
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Years ago I had one gun, a Stevens 311, 16 ga., IC&MOD. If I wanted to hunt deer, that was the gun I would have to use.

I bought some rifled slugs, set up a target at 50 yards, and "sighted-in". The right barrel shot 6" low and 12" to the left. The left barrel shot 6" low and 12" to the right. I figured that I would have to use a little Kentucky Windage and went hunting.

Fortunately for all concerned my teenage deer hunting skills did not permit me to test my sighting skills. Bob K has it right: shoot the darn thing and see what happens!


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