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 Post subject: PROPER SHOOTING FORM ??
PostPosted: Sun Dec 05, 2010 10:19 am 
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What shooting form do you use?

What is your idea of proper shooting form ?

What are you doing wth your feet, knees, body placement, stance, weight distribution and gun position ?

Do you shoot low gun or premount?

Do you stand upright or do you crouch into the gun ?

Do you think shooting form, proper or improper, contributes to felt recoil ? ability to see the target?

Does your form enhance or impede your ability to swing on the target?

What do you do in the "off season" to keep your form?



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 Post subject: Re: PROPER SHOOTING FORM ??
PostPosted: Sun Dec 05, 2010 10:41 am 
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I believe I got this from Chris Batha;

Feet - always pointed to either side of where you’ll break the target along with the centerline of your upper body pointed at the point where you will break the target.

Upper body – erect, and rotate at the waist to the hold point in front of where the eyes will first pick up the target. Gun muzzle held just below anticipated flight path of bird. Be sure your holding the gun properly.

Head - rotated further to the eye focus point where you’ll first see the bird.

Eyes - soft focused on infinity in front the area where birds will first appear, with both eyes open. Relax - softly exhale just prior to calling for the bird.

Brain - be sure it is clear, and focused on only one thing, the target.
Call –Exhale, relax and call pull.

Eyes - picks up bird in peripheral vision and focus on it, the eyes will do it naturally. Gun is swinging and coming up to cheek, gun touches cheek and the correct lead is established, trigger is pulled and gun swing is followed through, and another bird disappears.

The problem/practice point (for me anyway) is getting it done before calling pull meaning i need to work on my/the "pre-shot routine".This is basically "Low Gun". "Pre mount" just does'nt work for me at any station but I do use the "cheat-mount"(not totally low or fitasc style) on the trap type targets. No off season here I just don't go in totally ridiculous conditions. I am certainly no expert, just my $.02 8)


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 Post subject: Re: PROPER SHOOTING FORM ??
PostPosted: Sun Dec 05, 2010 1:03 pm 
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This one's going to open a can of worms. Any minute now we'll have the usual lecture from Rollin followed by n pages of arguments.

Get your tickets now. :D

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 Post subject: Re: PROPER SHOOTING FORM ??
PostPosted: Sun Dec 05, 2010 2:02 pm 
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Trickster wrote:
This one's going to open a can of worms. Any minute now we'll have the usual lecture from Rollin followed by n pages of arguments.

Get your tickets now. :D


That's why I started it. :mrgreen: To get some opinions.

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 Post subject: Re: PROPER SHOOTING FORM ??
PostPosted: Sun Dec 05, 2010 2:29 pm 
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Both hands need to move in 'concert'. The sea/saw muzzle mount is a primary reason some people have trouble shooting low gun atmo. Hell, some people even do it with an almost premounted gun. Remember, you heard it here first from a B class shooter.

Please remit $10 to my Pay Pal account for the information.

Watching many many people shoot, I amazed they break any targets. Or the targets break in spite of their technique not because of it. Take your pick.

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 Post subject: Re: PROPER SHOOTING FORM ??
PostPosted: Sun Dec 05, 2010 3:46 pm 
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Grab the gun, step into the station, load the gun, call for the bird, shoot in front, break the bird and repeat as required. What is so hard about that? Not very controversial is it?

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 Post subject: Re: PROPER SHOOTING FORM ??
PostPosted: Fri Dec 10, 2010 6:53 pm 
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What is a "cheat-mount, a sea-saw muzzle mount and is a pre-mount a fully ready mount. I am new to shotguns.


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 Post subject: Re: PROPER SHOOTING FORM ??
PostPosted: Fri Dec 10, 2010 7:19 pm 
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Curly is right! What ever breaks the target is good form!!

Viperman,
If you are using a "low" mount ( any mount where the gun is not in the pocket can be a low mount, down to a FITASC mount that is a measured amount below the shoulder) both hands should move at the same time so tha barrel doesn't dip or rise above the target line but the gun comes up equally on both ends to the target line!!

All that said a "cheater mount" is when the gun is on the shoulder poket and the face may or may not be "fully" mounted.
And it goes without saying when you use a cheater mount the barrel WILL NOT come up equally as the butt is already "up".
Most sporting Clays guys use a cheater mount to be close to fully mounted, but not with the face on the stock. After the rule was changed many guys went to a high or "cheater mount."

There are several folks I know that have a high mount and the barrels held low and out of the line of sight before calling PULL. So the front of the barrel comes up to the target path and definately does not move in concert with the rear hand! That method works as well as any other. So contrary to any opinion here, form follows function!

Go to you tube and watch the top MASTERCLASS in a shootof for nationals!
They are all very high mounts!


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 Post subject: Re: PROPER SHOOTING FORM ??
PostPosted: Fri Dec 10, 2010 8:12 pm 
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What is the link for that?

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 Post subject: Re: PROPER SHOOTING FORM ??
PostPosted: Fri Dec 10, 2010 8:19 pm 
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http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/2490443

After the ad!! Skip to about the 9:40 mark for the start of the shoot offs


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 Post subject: Re: PROPER SHOOTING FORM ??
PostPosted: Fri Dec 10, 2010 8:20 pm 
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You have to know your body, some things are sorta standard, but in order for you to hit a target you may move - mounting -foot position, etc out of standard .. I've seen shooters that I don't know how they break targets consistently, but they do. Your eyesight, how fast you can pick up the blur. To me the most important factor in shooting is having a gun fitted to you. Recoil becomes very less of a problem, and your scores will go up. Fitted gun does have a bearing on shooting form..


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 Post subject: Re: PROPER SHOOTING FORM ??
PostPosted: Fri Dec 10, 2010 9:01 pm 
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Bringing the muzzle up to the target line is a far cry from what I'm referring to. Yeah, go watch some videos and I bet you'll see very little gun movement. Watch the muzzles, how much do they bob up and down?

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braddkidjr wrote: ......#1 Take responsibility for your performance. (blaming your choke for being to tight, your squad-mate for talking too loud, or the trapper for pulling too slow isn't getting you anywhere...


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 Post subject: Re: PROPER SHOOTING FORM ??
PostPosted: Sun Dec 12, 2010 11:51 am 
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unplugged wrote:
Curly is right! What ever breaks the target is good form!!
.......
So contrary to any opinion here, form follows function!
.......



So shooting form is not important ?
Use whatever form you feel is necessary to break the target? use different form on a 20 yard shot and a different form on a 50 yard shot. How many shooting "forms" do you have to use to shoot a course, different form per station ? 15 or 16 different forms?
I could see it being hard to be consistent that way...

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 Post subject: Re: PROPER SHOOTING FORM ??
PostPosted: Sun Dec 12, 2010 12:59 pm 
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Byran,
I did not say form is not important. Nor did I say the barrel should "bob up and down."

I did say when shooting high gun the hands DO NOT move in concert as the rear of the gun is already mounted! So bringing the barrel to the target line and not rasing it and lowering as the target is acquired is important.
I also DID say whatever works is good form. ( Providing the form is applied in a consistant manner. I've witnessed too many very differnt forms that work for different shooters. So I also think there is NO ONE correct form.) Some shoot with a very erect head and some crawl down the stock, and there are guys that shoot at the very top level using both forms!

And yes shooting form does change from one shot to another. If you are shooting LOW gun on the first shot for a long crosser or a HIGH gun ( pre-mounted) for a trap target the form is different. And as many others will tell you, the method of lead will change form to some extent! If you shoot swing through the barrel and your "turn" will dictate how you set up and insert on a target.
Many good shooters use a method of "intercept", where the barrel is held below the target line and is inserted to the target flight path at the correct lead and the shot is fired. How and when the gun is inserted and fired, is a change in form, from both a HOLD point ( along the target flight path) as well as where and how the barrel is brought to the target line and shot sequence. The hold point also influences the foot position and ready position. So in that sense, different methods of lead change form.

More than one method of lead may be needed to shoot a round of clays.

And for information,( I don't do this) George Digweed suggests different HAND positions on the forearm for different shots. ( Far out for those with less swing and back torwards the reciever for those with more swing!) That too is a change in form depending on the shot.
But again I do not change my hand position, but who's to argue with Mr. Digweeds success?

There is also a lot of variation in how the forearm is held. If you look at the shoot-offs above you will see a very HIGH on the gun, even fingers over the rib, and others that do not point a finger along the forearm, and others that simply “cradle” the forearm with the hand underneath the forearm. If the shooter is consistent, are any of those “forms” incorrect?

My form, is I point my finger high along the forearm and have both wrists straight and perpendicular to the ground. ( That is rear hand grips the stock like you are shaking hands, wrist straight and perpendicular to the ground as opposed to the thumb high on the stock and wrist bent at an angle! And my forehand is also held straight and perpendicular to the ground, this places my pointing finger near the top of the forearm.
I do not think there is ONLY one form that works! That is my point


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 Post subject: Re: PROPER SHOOTING FORM ??
PostPosted: Sun Dec 12, 2010 1:53 pm 
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unplugged wrote:
My form, is I point my finger high along the forearm and have both wrists straight and perpendicular to the ground. ( That is rear hand grips the stock like you are shaking hands, wrist straight and perpendicular to the ground as opposed to the thumb high on the stock and wrist bent at an angle! And my forehand is also held straight and perpendicular to the ground, this places my pointing finger near the top of the forearm.
I do not think there is ONLY one form that works! That is my point


I certainly have to agree that not only one form works and can work. I am curious to find out what others are doing.
I travel to registered shoots as much as time allows, I have watched hundreds of amatuers and some of the top pros shoot.

Shooting form begins with the feet and on up through the body. The "stance"
Of course we all make minor changes to hold point, gun mounting height, look point as the circumstances dictate but this is not a change in the basic shooting form "stance" that would be used from station to station target to target.

Do you stand upright on some shots? Bend knees and drive with the lower body on others ?

I have recently changed my basic form (stance) and since changing I have noticed a big difference in felt recoil, among several other positive changes. For me it was a major fundamental change to my game.

So I am curious to what other shooters are doing and if their form is holding them back?

Thanks

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 Post subject: Re: PROPER SHOOTING FORM ??
PostPosted: Sun Dec 12, 2010 11:03 pm 
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Frickin first I wrote:

"..The sea/saw muzzle mount is a primary reason some people have trouble shooting low gun atmo..."

Second I wrote: "...some people even do it with an almost premounted gun...."

By "in concert" I'll explain [cause it seems I have to] that if your gun isn't fully mounted atmo you should move both hands at the same time, not on at a time......in concert.

I stood in my living room a week ago and watched someone mount their gun from a position just down a couple inches. The first thing they did was raise the butt to their face [which lowered the muzzles] then raise the muzzles which swung up then back down to "level".

Sweet, that'll help their shooting I'm sure.

You don't have to have an International skeet low gun position to have a crappy mount, 2" seems to be more then enough.

Of course if your gun is fully shouldered [like a trap/skeet shooter] it would make sense that you would only have one hand move.....but then I wasn't talking about that.

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braddkidjr wrote: ......#1 Take responsibility for your performance. (blaming your choke for being to tight, your squad-mate for talking too loud, or the trapper for pulling too slow isn't getting you anywhere...


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 Post subject: Re: PROPER SHOOTING FORM ??
PostPosted: Sun Dec 12, 2010 11:05 pm 
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Bryan, what was your change?

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braddkidjr wrote: ......#1 Take responsibility for your performance. (blaming your choke for being to tight, your squad-mate for talking too loud, or the trapper for pulling too slow isn't getting you anywhere...


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 Post subject: Re: PROPER SHOOTING FORM ??
PostPosted: Mon Dec 13, 2010 9:59 am 
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This is from a guy w/ a crappy average :mrgreen: , so take it for what it's worth:

the 1st thing I do is get my feet right. I shoot from a very closed stance --otherwise I tend to roll my shoulders on a left to right. So I set my feet for the birds I am shooting.

2d: I set my body to handle the birds being thrown.....if I need to shoot the 2d bird really fast , as it is going away and will be very long if I do not shoot quickly , I hunch into the gun so that I can control the recoil and get off a very fast 2d shot.

Otherwise , I relax and wait for the bird to develop....not wanting my gun in my face too long, as this will make me pick up my head to get a better look and many times I will forget to put my head back down. I almost never look at the barrel , but will happily pick my head up to watch my (bad) shot.

I use all the methods of getting in front of the bird , but use pull away the most. I find that sinc'ing the gun and the bird gets me on line and w/ the right gun speed best.

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 Post subject: Re: PROPER SHOOTING FORM ??
PostPosted: Mon Dec 13, 2010 9:35 pm 
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Snowbound wrote:
Bryan, what was your change?


Feet: the heels are about 6" apart. They used to be shoulder width. They now are about 70 degrees to each other. Body is turned to where the target will be broken. they used to be more parallel w left foot pointing to break point.

Feet: weight dist. is about 50/50 left to right and about 50/50 heel to ball. It used to be 60/40 front foot to rear foot with more weight on the ball of the left foot.

Knees: My knees are now locked. They used to be bent. very bent, both of them.
Legs are now straight and remain straight through the shot.

upper body: very upright, not crouched into the gun anymore.

gun position: my mount is now longer, the gun is held lower, generally almost to FITASC line. For a really fast target I shorten the mount. Body position stays the same.

Mount speed has been slowed waaaaaaaaaaaaay down.

Head: is now turned to where the target is first seen and is held upright, not turned down anymore. I am now looking through the centers of my eye sockets, not looking out the tops under the brow.

Head: very little head pressure on the gun. The gun comes to the face and the trigger is pulled, no riding the target. no measuring. The gun is inserted into the lead.

Muzzle start is 1/3 of way to break point.

The swing on a target is now more of an arms/hands/waist-turn as opposed to an arms/hands/knee/foot-drive-turn to the bird.

I am still working hard on the new form and it is really starting to work for me. I feel very relaxed and comfortable when I shoot and corrections to a bird that is offline seems to be more controlled and less rushed.

Basically one form "stance" for all shots that may be fine tuned to the presentation, but no major changes necessary.

Felt recoil has been reduced "big time" I imagine I could shoot two flats of ammo in an afternoon and not be beat up. I'm talking the 1 1/8 1235 stuff too.

I'm sure there are a few other things that I forgot to add. Thats all I can think of right now.

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 Post subject: Re: PROPER SHOOTING FORM ??
PostPosted: Tue Dec 14, 2010 10:37 am 
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Hey Bryan, the reduction is felt recoil is amazing is it not :?: :wink:


Randy




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