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 Post subject: Model 12 16 Gauge Cycling Issues
PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2010 11:35 pm 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Sun Dec 20, 2009 4:34 pm
Posts: 1334
Location: Louisiana
Good Evening All. I have two 16 Gauge Model 12s of 1959 vintage. Both have issues with the fired shell getting caught in the ejection port. Some brands of ammo seem to be worse than others. For instance, Winchester field loads and game loads don't seem to work as well as Remington loads. I have not tried any other brands. Has anyone else had this issue and what is the likely culprit? All three of my 20 gauges and also my 12 gauge will digest anything you run through them, but the 16s have had these issues most of the time since I've owned them. I don't think the cartridge cutoffs are worn as the guns don't double-feed from the magazine tube during cycling. Any insight on this would be welcomed.


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 Post subject: Re: Model 12 16 Gauge Cycling Issues
PostPosted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 12:18 am 
Presentation Grade

Joined: Sun Jan 14, 2007 10:41 pm
Posts: 948
Location: Vancouver Island
Here's an idea . . . If the actions are reasonably smooth, clean, slightly lubricated and both extractors are functioning properly; you might try re-arcing the ejector spring. If that doesn't help, try changing an ejector from another gun that functions correctly. Sometimes a longer ejector spring will kick the empties out at a sharper angle helping the spent casing to clear the ejection port.

Rod


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 Post subject: Re: Model 12 16 Gauge Cycling Issues
PostPosted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 9:05 am 
Field Grade

Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 11:43 am
Posts: 54
I have had several Model 12 16 gauges, and the only time that I encountered this issue was on an older (1917-18 if I remember correctly), short chambered Nickel Steel gun. Oddly enough, the only factory shells that I could get to eject were from Remington. Are you certain of the manufacture date(s) on your guns?


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 Post subject: Re: Model 12 16 Gauge Cycling Issues
PostPosted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 9:15 am 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Sun Dec 20, 2009 4:34 pm
Posts: 1334
Location: Louisiana
Rod, I thought about that, however, both guns will cycle loaded shells flawlessly and at times, spent shells will cycle without issue. Both guns are clean inside and out. Sometimes after firing a few rounds, the guns will start cycling efficiently and then start hanging up for a few rounds. It's strange the way it happens. I may just try to find some NOS extractors and see if that cures it. I've also thought of polishing the chambers on them to see if that helps.


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 Post subject: Re: Model 12 16 Gauge Cycling Issues
PostPosted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 9:17 am 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Sun Dec 20, 2009 4:34 pm
Posts: 1334
Location: Louisiana
superx2shootr wrote:
I have had several Model 12 16 gauges, and the only time that I encountered this issue was on an older (1917-18 if I remember correctly), short chambered Nickel Steel gun. Oddly enough, the only factory shells that I could get to eject were from Remington. Are you certain of the manufacture date(s) on your guns?


Yes, both guns are in the 1.7 million serial range and are marked as 2 3/4" chambers.


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 Post subject: Re: Model 12 16 Gauge Cycling Issues
PostPosted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 5:49 pm 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2008 9:15 pm
Posts: 192
Location: Ontario
I have two from the mid 50's and they both have the same problem. I just use Reminton shells. One of them had its ejector messed with when I got it; I guess someone was trying to make it better and made it worse.


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 Post subject: Re: Model 12 16 Gauge Cycling Issues
PostPosted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 8:45 pm 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Sun Dec 20, 2009 4:34 pm
Posts: 1334
Location: Louisiana
Remington shells. That doesn't surprise me because mine work best with thise black Remington Dove and Quail loads which I can't always find. Hopefully, we'll get some more insight on this with this thread.


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 Post subject: Re: Model 12 16 Gauge Cycling Issues
PostPosted: Wed Dec 08, 2010 12:56 pm 
Limited Edition

Joined: Tue Dec 28, 2004 6:09 pm
Posts: 460
My 20 gauge did the same thing, and I found that if I watched how I loaded the magazine, with the last shell it would work fine. The shell has to have some space and not rest on the carrier.


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 Post subject: Re: Model 12 16 Gauge Cycling Issues
PostPosted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 12:07 am 
Gunsmith
Gunsmith
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Joined: Thu Jan 25, 2007 1:40 am
Posts: 907
Location: St. Louis area
These situations can have a variety of causes that may be due to multiple issues contributing to the function failure, and I have repaired many such Model-12's (and 42's, plus other examples) that have been unreliable- sometimes direct from the factory floor.

The failures described here may not be from the same causes, even if the description of failures is identical. What may work to improve (not necessarily cure) one example mechanism, may have no improvement discerned when done to another. That is when a specialist should take a look at the mechanism.

I wrote about one 16 ga. that had been used as a single shot for over 40 years by the original owner during his dog-training walks, since it couldn't feed a shell dropped onto the carrier up into the chamber. Once he got past 80, he sold the Model-12 to the local gun shop who subsequently sold this pump single-shot to the current owner.
He found out after the sale that he wouldn't be shooting doubles with it by feeding from the magazine.
I fixed his particular basket of issues (more factory induced problems in that example than I've seen in a long time) and that gun could cycle about as fast as a machine gun and feed/cycle straight up, down, sideways, port down and upside down without a hitch.
He now has a target-grade Winchester to parade about on 16 ga. day at the sporting clays range. That is what a Model-12 should be- something to be envied by the other shooters.

Kirby
kirbythegunsmith@hotmail.com

_________________
Gunsmithing website:
http://theshotgunshop.net
Articles on every page.
Article 3 pictures improper or dangerous choke installations, article 1 has explanatory illustrations, and article 2 has info. about bore/forcing cone improvements/limitations.


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 Post subject: Re: Model 12 16 Gauge Cycling Issues
PostPosted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 7:55 am 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Sun Dec 20, 2009 4:34 pm
Posts: 1334
Location: Louisiana
Kirby, I was hoping you would weigh in on this issue. Would you elaborate on some of the causes of the issue in question?


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 Post subject: Re: Model 12 16 Gauge Cycling Issues
PostPosted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 7:58 am 
Presentation Grade

Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2007 9:29 am
Posts: 942
Location: Maine
Between us, Pumpgun and I have a few 2 3/4" 16 ga M-12s. All work with RGLs.....well, most RGLs. I've found the 67mm B&Ps cycle perfectly. All these guns will bobble an annoying percentage of Federals and 2 3/4" Fio/Cheddites/etc. by failure to clear @ front ejection port. Compare the fired lengths of hulls and you'll see why. As Rod suggests you can slightly alter ejection timing to very slightly increase clearance. And this may solve the problem. OTOH, you can end up needing new parts and/or Kirby if you're ham-handed like me.

Why do 2.5" chambered 20s usually cycle 2 3/4" shells, while 2 3/4" 16s are picky about 2 3/4" shells? Geometry is part of the answer; consider the diagonal lengths of cylinders of varying diameter. These guns were designed when roll-crimped paper loadings ruled - I imagine radiused paper edges are a bit more forgiving if scuffing the forward end of the ejection port.

So, for M-12s I load RGLs. If I need factory loads it's RGLs and B&Ps. I have yet to load the 2.5" Cheddites with MEC short kit but am sure those will cycle just fine.

Sam


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 Post subject: Re: Model 12 16 Gauge Cycling Issues
PostPosted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 2:50 pm 
Field Grade

Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 11:43 am
Posts: 54
It is interesting to hear of this issue with the "later" production guns. I have two that are just slightly older than yours (mine are in the 1.6 million serial range), and neither one of them have given me any grief with any make of ammunition that has been used. I'm sure that there had to be a fairly tight spec. for the size of the ejection port. Does anyone have that measurement to compare to your M12?


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 Post subject: Re: Model 12 16 Gauge Cycling Issues
PostPosted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 8:03 pm 
Gunsmith
Gunsmith
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 25, 2007 1:40 am
Posts: 907
Location: St. Louis area
Here is what I showed in a previous posting:
--------------------------------------------------
On occasion I have had to open the ejection port slightly when the clearance was insufficient to allow free shell ejection motion.

You will lose the blue in that location until or unless you get a reblue, (try a black marker to dull the shine) but the gun can be made to reliably function with the full range of standard length shells.

This is one 16 ga. that I am converting.

Image

Proper clearance and verification of operation will make your Winchester Model-12 shotgun all that it was meant to be.

kirbythegunsmith@hotmail.com

Model-12 specialist gunsmith
------------------------------------------


I realize that the port contour does not match what the factory did to extend the port for the normal 2-3/4" small ga. and create the Magnum 12 ga., and that is part and parcel of making one of these examples have the ability to digest virtually any shell within the modern SAAMI spec. Those contours were created during the paper hull heyday and plastic hulls weren't even a consideration.
I know of only one Magnum where a guy had some remainder shells that were loaded in European hulls that created an occasional issue that he has yet to have me investigate thoroughly, since those shells are never going to be bought again. Those actually measured a bit over 3" fired length.
He has sent me a number of Model-12's to rework, rebuild, and optimize for his hunting pleasure. I'm assembling a 16 ga. for him right now and installing some like-new wood that I got just by chance.

The port contour of the standard 2-3/4" 12 ga. and older short chamber 16/20 is the small radius lower corner that- when coupled with a longer profile- allows sufficient clearance and even a bit of surplus for crimp wrinkled edges from heat-sealed case mouth flashings.
That is inclusive of the total rework package that I do to optimize the mechanism for assembling, loading, feeding, stroking, ejecting, cocking, locking, bolt lockup, bolt retention, extraction, slide lock release tension, magazine band and tube alignment/sliding insertion/positive locating/rotating/retention plus ...

I provide (for those wanting an extra-special Model-12) a comprehensive rework of just about every surface and edge that induces any possible level of drag or wear beyond what precision machined parts should have, and the mechanisms have the best chance to improve and get even smoother with time. This is done without removal of significant amounts of material that would alter the inherent tolerances already present or expected.

I provide similar reworking to all manner of mechanisms- from Classic Browning Superposed/new Citori Target doubles to Mossberg pumps meant for home protection, and plenty of Semi/Pump/Bolt rifles and shotguns that include Benelli etc. waterfowl user favorites.

I fit my custom chokes in the same manner that I fit these parts to each other: close and even closer; smooth and even smoother. Alignment is another aspect that I always emphasize- whether it is the choke hole and tube or the action slide arm and slot.

_________________
Gunsmithing website:
http://theshotgunshop.net
Articles on every page.
Article 3 pictures improper or dangerous choke installations, article 1 has explanatory illustrations, and article 2 has info. about bore/forcing cone improvements/limitations.


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 Post subject: Re: Model 12 16 Gauge Cycling Issues
PostPosted: Fri Dec 10, 2010 8:49 am 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Sun Dec 20, 2009 4:34 pm
Posts: 1334
Location: Louisiana
Kirby, thankyou. I appreciate the time you took to explain this and now I understand {hs# .


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 Post subject: Re: Model 12 16 Gauge Cycling Issues
PostPosted: Fri Dec 10, 2010 11:08 am 
Limited Edition
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Joined: Wed Aug 26, 2009 9:02 pm
Posts: 403
This pic shows the difference in the ejection ports, top one is the longer port for 2 3/4" shells.

Image

A pic of another modified port probably done by a local gunsmith as it is different than ones modified by Winchester.

Image


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 Post subject: Re: Model 12 16 Gauge Cycling Issues
PostPosted: Sat Dec 11, 2010 2:19 am 
Gunsmith
Gunsmith
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 25, 2007 1:40 am
Posts: 907
Location: St. Louis area
Walt,
the person that modified that frame must not have thought that blending of the alteration was to be of primary concern.
If that cut-out has sufficient hull clearance, I'd say that was a definitive example of "strictly utilitarian" rework.
I prefer to make the blend just a bit more unobtrusive an it can't hurt to be imitative of factory profiles i.e. making port alteration contours appear as the 2-3/4" 12 ga. style with the end corners in mirror profile.
--------------------------

The explanations concerning the extending of the port are not the end of the alteration or the beginning, either.
The totality of the mechanical function is something that I carefully examine to judge where and how much of certain alterations are necessary to make the package reliability a certainty.

The port alteration is something that should be included if a shooter wants to have the option to shoot whatever shells that they might want to use, rather than be limited by the shells that they need to buy- especially if not a common type found on the shelf in typical stores.

With the number of shooter grade Model-12 small ga. guns out there, I don't see as sacrilege the notion of altering one for shooter use. I might admit that it would seem better to use a less-than-pristine example as a subject to convert, but the owner does get what he needs to do the job when he asks me to make the gun run like the proverbial scalded dog.
I have had to convert enough clean-looking guns that failed to be reliable to consider looks as the detail in need of conservation- especially if the blasted thing won't shuck worth a durn.

When I recently had that grade-5 Browning Model-42 here that would fail to this and that in a quintessential example of basic NIB (practically) failure to perform, most shooters would have been absolutely appalled by the overwhelming lack of living up to the Browning or Winchester reputations concerning quality of manufacturing, design, and function.
Just another example that luckily didn't remain as a polished t...

Kirby

_________________
Gunsmithing website:
http://theshotgunshop.net
Articles on every page.
Article 3 pictures improper or dangerous choke installations, article 1 has explanatory illustrations, and article 2 has info. about bore/forcing cone improvements/limitations.


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 Post subject: Re: Model 12 16 Gauge Cycling Issues
PostPosted: Sat Dec 11, 2010 6:47 pm 
Tournament Grade
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 06, 2010 12:31 pm
Posts: 118
I have a 1924 Model 12, 12 gauge field gun that similar issues. At the end of the day, the "issue" was that it had been over 40 years since the gun was taken apart and thoroughly cleaned. I picked up a "Winchester Model 12 Maintenance" video by the American Gunsmithing Institute (AGI) on how to disassemble, clean and reassemble the Model 12. My gun cycles like a DREAM and I now feel confident in my ability to maintain the gun for many years to come.


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 Post subject: Re: Model 12 16 Gauge Cycling Issues
PostPosted: Sun Dec 12, 2010 12:30 am 
Gunsmith
Gunsmith
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 25, 2007 1:40 am
Posts: 907
Location: St. Louis area
Congratulations.
Another shooter satisfied by noticing the difference between a dirty gun with 2-score years of crud embedded and the after-effect of cleaning.

You'd better watch about posting that you cleaned a gun that was only containing 40-something years of crud.
Some here believe you should wait for approximately the half-century mark.
I stated that 10 years was a long time for oil to remain without cleaning and renewing the lubricant, and 20 years would have even un-used guns having difficulties with lubricant breakdown by then.
--------------------------------

Here was some information I posted before about the conversion of Model-12 short chamber small ga. guns.

http://thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=4 ... stcount=14

Kirby

_________________
Gunsmithing website:
http://theshotgunshop.net
Articles on every page.
Article 3 pictures improper or dangerous choke installations, article 1 has explanatory illustrations, and article 2 has info. about bore/forcing cone improvements/limitations.


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 Post subject: Re: Model 12 16 Gauge Cycling Issues
PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2012 11:23 am 
Utility Grade

Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2012 7:16 pm
Posts: 5
Sorry to bring back an old topic, but this has been a strong thread. I have a 1953 Model 12 16-gauge with 2 3/4" chamber and Mod. choke. I recently purchased it at a Gun Library inside Cabela's near Ft. Worth, Texas and have only put about 50 shells through it. It appears to be in fine conditions. It racks great, and loads shells smoothly. It will eject live shells and snap caps like a dream, but spent shells very often get stuck in the ejection port. So far I have only used Remington shells that are 2 3/4." My question is: is this a common problem for this model and gauge from guns of this era (the early 50s)? If so, then I'd assume the problem is likely related to the length of the modern 16-gauge hull. And probably the best remedy is the port modification calling for the squaring off of one corner. But if this problem is not typical of the early-50s editions, I'm wondering what other remedies I should pursue.

On a somewhat related note, can anyone recommend a good gunsmith for shotguns in the Nashville, TN area?

Any thoughts are greatly appreciated. Thank you!

Best, Rob


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 Post subject: Re: Model 12 16 Gauge Cycling Issues
PostPosted: Sun Aug 12, 2012 2:57 pm 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Sun Dec 20, 2009 4:34 pm
Posts: 1334
Location: Louisiana
B&P makes a 2 5/8 inch 16 gauge field load. Has anyone here used these in a Model 12 with a 2 3/4 inch chamber?


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