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 Post subject: Re: Shotgun vs rifle for grizzly bears? Armor Penetration sl
PostPosted: Sun Dec 26, 2010 9:18 am 
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1CYLON3 wrote:
@Banjo MD "I plan on buying a Saiga 12 with an 8 inch barrel. I want to make sure that super heavy slugs and 3 inch magnum 15 pellet 00 buck wont beat it up or my Benelli m4."

Read more: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=242820#ixzz19BFuuPzk

Got it, 1CYLON3! :mrgreen:

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 Post subject: Re: Shotgun vs rifle for grizzly bears? Armor Penetration sl
PostPosted: Sun Dec 26, 2010 9:47 am 
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For close quarters, most guides in Alaska want a fast easy to point and fast follow up shot type gun. The 1895 Marlin guide gun in 450 Marlin is a good choice. I just sold mine. Many a guide has carried a short barreled shotgun loaded with altering slug, 00 Buck. when trailing a wounded bear in thick cover. The Germans wanted the shotgun banned from war as they said it was a inhumane weapon that delivered massive damage to it's victims.

A 375 H&H or larger rifle is fine for reasonable distance shots but when things get hairy at up close and personal. Something with rapid and lethal firepower is in demand. A side arm of a 500 S&W is a good choice for when all else has failed and the bear is now nearly on top of you. I own one and it's a train stopper at close range with 400 plus grain CorBon's.


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 Post subject: Re: Shotgun vs rifle for grizzly bears? Armor Penetration sl
PostPosted: Sun Dec 26, 2010 10:20 am 
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DrMike wrote:
You can't go outside because of the charging herds of polar and grizzly bears (exactly where did you *not* say you live where you have both?) and you can't stay inside because of the hoardes of Kevlar-clad ninjas breaking in your doors and crowding in your hallways. You live in a tough place, dude. I'd think seriously about moving.

Another option would be to take up fishing. You seem to be doing well here.


Ha Ha Ha, you made me laugh Mike, Perhaps as he is under the threat of criminals, ninjas,
grizzlies, polars, he should apply for a chain gun! that should sort out his terrors! {hs#


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 Post subject: Re: Shotgun vs rifle for grizzly bears? Armor Penetration sl
PostPosted: Sun Dec 26, 2010 10:53 am 
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bear spray>guns. /end thread.


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 Post subject: Re: Shotgun vs rifle for grizzly bears? Armor Penetration sl
PostPosted: Sun Dec 26, 2010 11:27 am 
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My first choice would be bear spray. The odds that most people can draw or shoulder and fire a lethal shot under duress is far less than casting a wide spread with bear spray.

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 Post subject: Re: Shotgun vs rifle for grizzly bears? Armor Penetration sl
PostPosted: Sun Dec 26, 2010 11:31 am 
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UnitMaster wrote:
My first choice would be bear spray.
I wouldn't trust that stuff to spice up eggs.


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 Post subject: Re: Shotgun vs rifle for grizzly bears? Armor Penetration sl
PostPosted: Sun Dec 26, 2010 12:49 pm 
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alfred10 wrote:
I am considering a Marlin 45.70 for my bear/ dangerous animal protection weapon. Will it penetrate better than the 12 gauge?


Short answer: Yes.

Shotguns with slugs are fine for deer sized game. But a big bear requires much more penetration than a deer. A heavy .45-70 will penetrate enough and still break bones.

I love shotguns, but they are not the best choice for a big bear.

Quote:
Will any slugs on the market penetrate armor to serve as my hallway clearer?


Slugs are not made to penetrate armor.

See here: http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot16.htm

To penetrate armor, use a rifle.

Rifle > Shotgun > Pistol.

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 Post subject: Re: Shotgun vs rifle for grizzly bears? Armor Penetration sl
PostPosted: Sun Dec 26, 2010 1:33 pm 
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You know guys I jumped in without look'n but now my Troll meter is buzzing. :roll:


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 Post subject: Re: Shotgun vs rifle for grizzly bears? Armor Penetration sl
PostPosted: Sun Dec 26, 2010 4:46 pm 
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Some years ago the USFWS did a study to answer this very question. the two top contenders were the 1895 Marlin in 45-70, the .450 Marloin would work as well. And the tried and true Remington 870 slug loaded. They ended up with the 870. the reasoning was that so many of the rangers they had were transplanted urbanite college types that feared recoil and had trouble manipulating a lever gun, that they followed the k.i.s.s. principal.
there is also the bear spray and bells theory. Wear bells to tell the bears you are there and bear spray if the come for you. How do you know from scat if a Griz has eaten a hiker? It smells like bear spray and has bells in it.


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 Post subject: Re: Shotgun vs rifle for grizzly bears? Armor Penetration sl
PostPosted: Sun Dec 26, 2010 7:21 pm 
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Love the debate. This brings back some very fond memories of my time in Alaska. I got the chance to work under some of the greatest bear guides of all time on Kodiak, Afognak, and the Alaska Peninsula.
Jiganator wrote:
For close quarters, most guides in Alaska want a fast easy to point and fast follow up shot type gun.


Yes this is true. We used big calibers in bolt actions with either express sights or low power scopes. Low power scopes are prefered. Some guides did use the big levers although none I personally knew of.

Jiganator wrote:
Many a guide has carried a short barreled shotgun loaded with altering slug, 00 Buck. when trailing a wounded bear in thick cover. The Germans wanted the shotgun banned from war as they said it was a inhumane weapon that delivered massive damage to it's victims.


There is absolutely no way I would ever go into heavy cover with anything resembling buckshot! Please believe this. Don't do it. It makes for one pissed off bear. In wartime they were shooting at people not a griz.

Jiganator wrote:
A 375 H&H or larger rifle is fine for reasonable distance shots but when things get hairy at up close and personal. Something with rapid and lethal firepower is in demand.


I have personally taken wounded bear on the charge in heavy cover. This was usually after the client already emptied his rifle's magazine into the bear. I used a 375 H&H with a 1.5-5 Leupold. My "backup" was a 458 WM with express sights. God I felt underpowered every time I did this! The key was practice practice and more practice. Throw in tons of adrenalin, nerves of steel, and damn near perfect shots.

Jiganator wrote:
A side arm of a 500 S&W is a good choice for when all else has failed and the bear is now nearly on top of you.


:D
You're Right...When all else fails. Just need one round and a friend. When in trouble shoot your buddie in the foot and run like hell. The 500 is fine for a controlled shooting scenario but I'll say no thanks on a charging bear.
Let's be real though. You may never have to take a shot at a charging bear. The chances are very small. Know your bears and remember you're in their house!


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 Post subject: Re: Shotgun vs rifle for grizzly bears? Armor Penetration sl
PostPosted: Sun Dec 26, 2010 8:03 pm 
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1CYLON3 wrote:
If a grizzly was charging me I would want nothing other than a 12 gauge 3" Remington buckhammer slug in a 870 pump.


A pump?


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 Post subject: Re: Shotgun vs rifle for grizzly bears? Armor Penetration sl
PostPosted: Sun Dec 26, 2010 9:28 pm 
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Smelly, what better than a pump? An auto I assume? Sorry man, I'll take time proven ka chunk, BOOM , ka chunk BOOM over a mysterious auto loader failure that must be diagnosed and cleared before the big brown eating machine clears fifty yards in three seconds. I'd take a double over an auto. The 870 is good enough for the USFWS, it would work fine for me.
Given my druthers, I'll take a big rifle. The one I use for blacks is a 1895 in 4570 w/ 3 leaf express sights. A hundred pound bear can wreck your whole day. I also pack a 3" hot loaded .44spl. Call me a chicken.


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 Post subject: Re: Shotgun vs rifle for grizzly bears? Armor Penetration sl
PostPosted: Sun Dec 26, 2010 9:48 pm 
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hunting black or grizzly bears with a shotgun is crazy! use a rifle!

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 Post subject: Re: Shotgun vs rifle for grizzly bears? Armor Penetration sl
PostPosted: Sun Dec 26, 2010 10:19 pm 
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Skeet boy,
The subject of this thread is not bear hunting. The subject is bear protection, big difference.


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 Post subject: Re: Shotgun vs rifle for grizzly bears? Armor Penetration sl
PostPosted: Sun Dec 26, 2010 11:02 pm 
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Smelly Benelli wrote:
1CYLON3 wrote:
If a grizzly was charging me I would want nothing other than a 12 gauge 3" Remington buckhammer slug in a 870 pump.


A pump?


Yes a pump. Not that the 870 comes in any other configuration, but I also wanted to convey my feelings towards not trusting a semi-auto in that situation.


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 Post subject: Re: Shotgun vs rifle for grizzly bears? Armor Penetration sl
PostPosted: Sun Dec 26, 2010 11:21 pm 
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Seriously?


I'd take a single shot 45-70 over a shotgun on bear...


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 Post subject: Re: Shotgun vs rifle for grizzly bears? Armor Penetration sl
PostPosted: Sun Dec 26, 2010 11:42 pm 
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Mcberry,
Really? single shot 45-70 you have a maximum of a five hundred grain bullet at roughly 1800 Fps.
870 shot gun , you have anywhere from 3 to 8 One ounce slugs at roughly 1500 fps.
Hey man, it's your choice.


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 Post subject: Re: Shotgun vs rifle for grizzly bears? Armor Penetration sl
PostPosted: Sun Dec 26, 2010 11:47 pm 
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If you shoot a charging grizzly with a shotgun...and he finds out about it...he will be pi$$ed!

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 Post subject: Re: Shotgun vs rifle for grizzly bears? Armor Penetration sl
PostPosted: Sun Dec 26, 2010 11:49 pm 
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I would think that any projectile propelled at an appropriate velocity, and placed in the correct location, would just royally mess up said bear's day. I know I wouldn't want to get hit with either one! JMHO

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 Post subject: Re: Shotgun vs rifle for grizzly bears? Armor Penetration sl
PostPosted: Mon Dec 27, 2010 12:01 am 
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870shooter wrote:
I would think that any projectile propelled at an appropriate velocity, and placed in the correct location, would just royally mess up said bear's day. I know I wouldn't want to get hit with either one! JMHO


You have apparently not been around a charging grizzly! They are supercharged with an incredible amount of adrenaline (or the bear equivalent) and are not easily stopped. It is one thing to hunt a grizzly but quite another to stop one that is enraged and looking to eliminate you.

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