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 Post subject: Federal Flight Control #1 Buckshot
PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2011 9:41 am 
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I attended the SHOT Show this year and spoke to Hal at the ATK booth. These are the folks that design and manufacture ammunition for law enforcement and the military.

As I walked up to the booth I started to speak with another Rep and asked about whether they were ever going to sell #1 buck in the FCW shell. He said that they were not, as far as he knew.

Then Hal walked up and said, "Didn't you and I talk about this last year?" I said that we had. He then said, "Well, I just learned that we are indeed going to produce a #1 buckshot load with the Flight Control Wad. We didn't think there would be a market for it, but we've had a lot of requests, so we are going to make some and see how it sells."

I told him, "There can't be a market if there is no product available." He grinned and said, "That's what I told them. I guess we will both see."

So keep your eyes peeled. We are finally going to get the best buckshot in the best wad. :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: Federal Flight Control #1 Buckshot
PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2011 9:48 am 
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I hope they do make it. I'd really like to try some out.

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 Post subject: Re: Federal Flight Control #1 Buckshot
PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2011 9:54 am 
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I'm going to go shoot up all my flitecontrol 00 to make room!

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 Post subject: Re: Federal Flight Control #1 Buckshot
PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2011 10:33 am 
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Woot!

Terrymo, it looks like your info was better than mine. As of last spring, I had a sympathetic ear at ATK that said corporate was dead-set against the idea. I'm glad that the market has been able to push them in the right direction!

ETA: I'm actually a little giddy at hearing the news.

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 Post subject: Re: Federal Flight Control #1 Buckshot
PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2011 10:56 am 
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I really hope this becomes available. I did not mean to sound like I had some secret squirrel connection. I did not want to put the person's name out there without his permission.


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 Post subject: Re: Federal Flight Control #1 Buckshot
PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2011 12:10 pm 
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I hope that they figure out a way to get enough pellets into a shell to be effective. The reason #1 works so well in the 12 ga shells is that the pellets stack in more efficient groups of 4 so that they have less dead space between them than 00 which stacks in groups of 3.

00 pellets are .33" in diameter and weigh 54 grains each. A standard load contains 9 pellets for a total payload of 486 grains.

#1 Buck is only slightly smaller at .30" in diameter and weighs 41 grains each. Because of the more efficient size they can be stacked in 4 groups of 4 for 16 total pellets at a weight of 656 grains.

00 = 9 pellets at 486 grains.
Vs.
#1 =16 pellets at 656 grains.

This is why many people prefer #1 as it makes nearly twice as many holes. Now, that being said, this data is for STANDARD loads without any form of shot cup to protect the pellets from scrubbing down the sides of the bore and deforming out of round. As you know this causes patterns to spread erratically.

Federal has developed technology that ameliorates this problem by protecting the shot in a cup that works much like modern birdshot wads do plus they figured out a way to put petals on the rear of the wad so that it gradually pulls away from the shot without tumbling and blowing the pattern. This has resulted in fantastic patterns that double the effective range of buckshot. This is not without sacrifices though. The shot cup takes up room in the shell like a sleeve and reduces the volume of shot that will fit in the shell.

Being that 00 buckshot is stacked in threes, there is no way to get it to properly fit inside a reduced diameter plastic cup without reducing the size and weight of the individual pellets. Therefore what Federal calls “00 Buck” is really the slightly smaller and lighter size “0” (Sort of like a 2x4 piece of lumber is not really 2” by 4”). If federal does develop a #1 load you can expect the pellets to be smaller and lighter and probably fewer than what you can get in a standard load but you can expect it to pattern about twice as tight.

If you think that you might have to take a long shot or need a golf ball sized pattern to solve a close range hostage problem this might be the load for you. If you are looking for a load that will do the maximum amount of damage within indoor distances of 10 yards or less, you probably need to stick with the current factory offering in #1.

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 Post subject: Re: Federal Flight Control #1 Buckshot
PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2011 5:50 pm 
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I have read that #1 needs to be plated or hardened to penetrate effectively. Any truth to this?


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 Post subject: Re: Federal Flight Control #1 Buckshot
PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2011 6:23 pm 
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Quote:
I have read that #1 needs to be plated or hardened to penetrate effectively. Any truth to this?


No, plating and hardness are desirable in that they keep the shot from deforming upon firing. A perfectly round ball presents the same frontal surface to the air no matter how it rotates and is therefore more accurate. Damaged pellets tend to sail and make poor patterns.

If you look at the 12 gauge Wound Profiles sticky at the top of the page you will see a test done with Remington #1 load which uses regular unplated lead pellets. Here is the text from the article:

2¾ Remington #1 Buckshot (16 pellet) shot out of an 18 inch barrelled Remington 870 marine magnum.

Picture

In this shot, the temporary stretch cavity exceeded the elastic limits of our gelatine block and ruptured out the top and side. An additional shot was conducted into a second gelatin block below at a slightly increased range to measure the temporary stretch cavity.

Picture

A 2¾ inch load firing 16 .30 cal pellets, this offering from Remington fired from an 18 inch barrelled Remington 870 Marine Magnum exhibited excellent average penetration of approximately 16.5 inches. Temporary stretch cavity measured approximately 8.5 inches. Shot recovered exhibited minimal deformation.

In our opinion, this load is superior to 00 buck for selection as a tactical shotgun load. While exhibiting slightly less penetration, overall penetration is still acceptable and if all pellets strike their intended target there is potential to create approximately 77% more wound tract with the additional 7 pellets.

Read more: viewtopic.php?f=7&t=109958#ixzz1CHQJhL9r

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 Post subject: Re: Federal Flight Control #1 Buckshot
PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2011 7:21 pm 
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Plated and hardend buck penetrates better.

A 12 pellet #1 buck load should allow for reduced recoil with 50% more wound tracks, and still make the FBI 12" protocol. 12 #1 pellets can be loaded in a full shot cup and driven to ~1200 FPS while mantaining managability.

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 Post subject: Re: Federal Flight Control #1 Buckshot
PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2011 7:25 pm 
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For the exact same reasons that plating and hardening help in patterning it helps in penetrating.
Hardened and plated shot will help the projos stay round in heavier media, just like in the barrel and in the lighter media of air. Hardening and plating keeps the shot pellet from deforming within the target, which reduces drag (just like in air) and keeps the velocity from degrading as quickly. That results in better penetration.
At a lower velocity the typical reduced recoil LE load will have less V to play with, so using the hardened and plated shot will help to offset that.

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 Post subject: Re: Federal Flight Control #1 Buckshot
PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2011 7:27 pm 
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That is actually a really good point, FMD!


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 Post subject: Re: Federal Flight Control #1 Buckshot
PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2011 7:50 pm 
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Thank you


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 Post subject: Re: Federal Flight Control #1 Buckshot
PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2011 8:49 pm 
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Ezra Smack wrote:
I hope that they figure out a way to get enough pellets into a shell to be effective.

Well, they've managed to do it in 00, so I don't see why they couldn't. They should be able to get the same number of pellets in the round.
Or is this another case of you insistence on FC 00 loads only being 8 pellet?
Quote:
Therefore what Federal calls “00 Buck” is really the slightly smaller and lighter size “0” (Sort of like a 2x4 piece of lumber is not really 2” by 4”).

Ezra, I've got to ask if you've ever actually gone and measured FC 00 pellets or if you are just repeating this. The reason I ask is because after reading your claim that FC 00 is actually closer to 0 in size for the bazillionth time I decided to go measure some.
Curiously, the FC 00 I measured ranged in size from just under .33" to one outlyer that was just over .33" that felt like it had a burr on it. Most were right at .33" and the ones under were much closer to .33" than .32" in measurement. I couldn't get a finer measurement on my mic.

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Quote:
If federal does develop a #1 load you can expect the pellets to be smaller and lighter and probably fewer than what you can get in a standard load but you can expect it to pattern about twice as tight.

Really?
ETA: The pellets I measured are from lot V13Z741, 2010 production, LE 132 00.
I also think O_P measured some in the past and found the same results, but I may be wrong on that.

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 Post subject: Re: Federal Flight Control #1 Buckshot
PostPosted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 1:37 am 
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Serious broken record syndrome. I would say "deja vu", but that's just the feeling that something has happened before.

Your recollection is correct. O_P just measured to one more significant figure than you did and got 0.325 (within the tolerance range to be considered 00 ). The post is HERE. Scroll up for O_P's measurements.

In the interest of being proactive I would also like to offer this: if you don't wrap your thumb, you won't hit your nose when using a short LOP stock.

RJM

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 Post subject: Re: Federal Flight Control #1 Buckshot
PostPosted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 10:05 am 
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RJM wrote:
Serious broken record syndrome.


When I tell my grandkids they sound like a broken record, they look at me like I'm speaking German. :D

I don't understand why Ezra continues to repeat this wrong information.

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 Post subject: Re: Federal Flight Control #1 Buckshot
PostPosted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 12:49 pm 
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The real question here is will Ezra rewrite the macro in his computer that instantly replies to everything: "#1 buck is better. Flitecontrol 00 is really 0. Reduced recoil Flitecontrol 00 only has 8 pellets."

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 Post subject: Re: Federal Flight Control #1 Buckshot
PostPosted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 1:24 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Federal Flight Control #1 Buckshot
PostPosted: Sat Jan 29, 2011 12:52 am 
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I'm not a big fan of the FliteControl stuff for the most part, but it'll be good to see a #1 buck load of any kind get some much needed exposure. Also I realize that not many, if not most folk's shotguns pattern well with this buckshot size in standard guise, so maybe FC is a must for it to become popular?


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 Post subject: Re: Federal Flight Control #1 Buckshot
PostPosted: Sat Jan 29, 2011 6:33 am 
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Some ammunition sellers are describing various Federal buckshot loads, both those with and those without FliteControl wads, with: "Patented spiral stacking process with plastic shot cup and buffering ensures dense patterns and a staggering blow. Federal Premium buckshot features copper plated shot that penetrates deep for hits." For example, AbleAmmo.com is selling Federal Premium Vital Shok PFC154 00, 12 Gauge, 2.75", 9 Pellets w/ Flitecontrol Wad, 1325 fps, #00 Copper Plated Lead Buckshot with a detailed explanation of FliteControl wads, immediately followed by the "patented spiral stacking process" statement. Note that PFC154 00 is the same load as LE127 00. I cannot verify from Federal's site that the loads with FliteControl wads also use the patented spiral stacking process, but I infer that they do. If so, then, while LE132 00, for example, may seem to us to be simply stacked 3x3 in a FliteControl wad, we may not be observing Federal's spiral stacking process and buffering placement that is sufficiently sophisticated to be patented.

Twenty years ago, Federal H132 was the "tactical" 00 buckshot low recoil load because the spiral stacking process and the Triple Plus wad produced tighter patterns than any other 00 buckshot. Later Federal re-branded this load as LE132 00 for several years until it was introduced with FliteControl wads.

Now for the record, I think that most of us have wanted Federal to produce a low recoil 12 pellet #1 buckshot load in a FliteControl wad, and not with the increased recoil of 16 pellets. Four "layers" of 3 #1 buckshot pellets could be easily bedded in buffering with the spiral stacking process in a FliteControl wad and a 12 gauge hull, and if loaded for no more than 1200 fps muzzle velocity, it would be an excellent reduced recoil HD load. I have read, however, that #1 buckshot wounded a BG but those pellets that hit his leather jacket did not penetrate it.

Thank you very much, Old_Painless and FMD, because in all likelihood you two may have been the main advocates that finally persuaded Federal to come to their logical production decision.

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 Post subject: Re: Federal Flight Control #1 Buckshot
PostPosted: Sat Jan 29, 2011 3:22 pm 
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FWIW, AmmoToGo has LE132 00 for sale again. I think someone was looking for this recently.

25rds - 12 Ga. Federal LE Tactical Low Recoil 9 pell. OO Buck $19.95

250rds - 12 Ga. Federal LE Tactical Low Recoil 9 pell. OO Buck $189.95

BTW, can someone tell if this FEDAXM12700AC is the same load as LE127-00?

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