CalendarCalendar   Photos  * FAQ
It is currently Fri Jul 25, 2014 3:56 am

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]


Image



Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 30 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: 20 gauge reload data
PostPosted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 9:40 pm 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2011 10:15 am
Posts: 203
Any advice hre as l am not able to locate data.

Wish to load 7/8..8 shot.
Hulls AA and Remington.
Primers 209 Winchester.
Wads Claybusters

Powder.. Red Dot !!

Looking for around 1200

Mec reloader.

Need to know what bushing to use/or if Red Dot is the right choice for this load.

Or suggestions otherwise.

Many thanks.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 20 gauge reload data
PostPosted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 9:43 pm 
Crown Grade
User avatar

Joined: Fri Aug 25, 2006 5:24 pm
Posts: 5367
Read this for your answer:

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=189696


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 20 gauge reload data
PostPosted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 11:10 pm 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2011 10:15 am
Posts: 203
Thanks for the reply.
Ok l read what you say, so am l correct here.
For 1200 fps using Unique l need 17.5g, Mec says for this a 26 bushing.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 20 gauge reload data
PostPosted: Sat Jan 29, 2011 12:06 am 
Presentation Grade
User avatar

Joined: Sun Nov 23, 2003 12:21 am
Posts: 624
Location: tennessee
Flyman wrote:
Thanks for the reply.
Ok l read what you say, so am l correct here.
For 1200 fps using Unique l need 17.5g, Mec says for this a 26 bushing.


Flyman check the load data carefully. I always loaded 16.0 gr. of Unique with your components.

_________________
Three Feathers


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 20 gauge reload data
PostPosted: Sat Jan 29, 2011 2:17 am 
Crown Grade
User avatar

Joined: Fri Oct 22, 2004 1:10 am
Posts: 3330
Location: Wichita,KS
For 1200 fps using Unique l need 17.5g, Mec says for this a 26 bushing.[/quote]

No you need a scale. Never trust the bushing charts because they are never right. Always use a scale. Otherwise you have no idea what you're really dropping.

Take care,
Rhett

_________________
Artificial intelligence is no match for natural stupidity.
I'm learning you NEVER want to argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.
You should never wrestle with a pig. You'll get dirty and he will enjoy it.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 20 gauge reload data
PostPosted: Sat Jan 29, 2011 9:15 am 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2011 10:15 am
Posts: 203
Rhett.
What l did was to check the Alliant powder chart for 20g 7/8 at 1200.
It told me 17.5
Then l checked the Mec reload chart and that related to a 26 bushing. at 17.7 as closest.

OK, now l am confused.
I would suspect that the vast majority of guys who reload rely on what these charts suggest.

Are you saying here that one needs to use a 26 bushing and then weigh the powder.
Ok if it is wrong, how then do you determine what bushing to use.
As this would suggest you would need to have a range of bushings to suit that load to determine which one is correct

Therefore how is one to determine what is a correct formula, there must be others here that use this formula.

Further are we saying that this really makes a great deal of difference, l know it is not a safety issue.
If Mec or others are providing data that is wrong then l would suggest they need to correct this issue,
would you not agree.
Who has if any a data chart that is correct.

Many thanks for you advice here. Much appreciated


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 20 gauge reload data
PostPosted: Sat Jan 29, 2011 9:50 am 
Crown Grade
User avatar

Joined: Fri Aug 25, 2006 5:24 pm
Posts: 5367
There's simply no substitute for a scale.

The bushing charts are wrong. Would going only by the bushing chart be dangerous? Likely not, but chances are you won't get the drop you're expecting. And what if it's too high? Do you want to risk that?

The answer to the bushing question you asked is simple: if the #26 drops low, try the next larger. If it drops heavy, drop down a size. Reweigh and continue until you're at the drop you need.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 20 gauge reload data
PostPosted: Sat Jan 29, 2011 9:59 am 
Presentation Grade
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jun 03, 2009 10:24 pm
Posts: 890
Location: Beyond the Pale
Bushing charts should only be used for suggested starting points. You must then do at least 10 powder drops and average the results. The press should be operated in a manner as close to actual loading as is possible. If that means doing several "dry pulls" between powder and shot drops then you do so. Press vibration is important to getting actual powder drops. The presence of shot and its drop also effect vibration. A good beam scale is absolutely necessary. You state you wanted data for Red Dot powder. Have you been loading 12 gauge shells already and are now branching out to 20?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 20 gauge reload data
PostPosted: Sat Jan 29, 2011 10:03 am 
Limited Edition

Joined: Sat Aug 26, 2006 8:47 pm
Posts: 319
Location: Western Pennsylvania
Flyman,
Red Dot is not my #1 choice for a 20 ga. load. Try Unique, Universal, 20/28 for good results and quite a bit of data.

You'll get great results with 15.8-16 gr. of Unique, 7/8 oz. of shot, in your Rem/WAA hulls. The only hull that I use 17 gr. in is the Fed. hull with the listed components.

My 24 bushing throws just under 16 gr. of Unique and my 26 bushing throws approx. 17 gr. of Unique. You MUST weigh the charge of any bushing you use. They are not precise - only a starting point. You can ream your bushings if they are too far under, but powder weights do vary somewhat from lot to lot, and humidity, static electricity in your loading area will affect charges to some degree. A scale is a must have.
Chuck


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 20 gauge reload data
PostPosted: Sat Jan 29, 2011 11:49 am 
Crown Grade
User avatar

Joined: Sun May 21, 2006 3:16 pm
Posts: 3275
Location: Southeast MI
Flyman wrote:
OK, now l am confused.
I would suspect that the vast majority of guys who reload rely on what these charts suggest.
No, not the "vast majority," but certainly more than there should be. One of the first things you should have read, or been told or shown, when you started reloading was a warning about relying on the accuracy of bushing charts.
Flyman wrote:
Are you saying here that one needs to use a 26 bushing and then weigh the powder.
Ok if it is wrong, how then do you determine what bushing to use.
As this would suggest you would need to have a range of bushings to suit that load to determine which one is correct

Therefore how is one to determine what is a correct formula, there must be others here that use this formula.

As S2R outlined above, use the bushing charts to find a bushing to try. Weigh several powder drops, using exactly the procedure you'll use when loading. If the average drop is too light, try the next larger bushing. If it's too heavy, try the next smaller one. Eventually you'll find one that is close (withing 0.5 gr is usually ok, except at the very top of the allowed pressure). Yes, you'll need a range of bushings (this is why most presses come with several bushings, not just one) to try for each new load.
Flyman wrote:
Further are we saying that this really makes a great deal of difference, l know it is not a safety issue.
If Mec or others are providing data that is wrong then l would suggest they need to correct this issue,
would you not agree.
Who has if any a data chart that is correct.

The charts are not so much wrong, incorrect or not accurate, they simply cannot be any better than they are, for several very good reasons. This is what MEC says about their bushing charts. It seems pretty clear that they are not telling anyone to rely on what the charts say without verification:

WARNING
The use of an accurate scale is strongly recommended with the use of these powder bushing charts. Many things can cause a variation from the weight listed on the chart. They include but are not limited to the following:

Powder density. The manufacturer's tolerance can cause a slight variation from the weight shown on the chart, and may even vary from lot to lot.

Individual operators give varying amounts of vibration to the machine causing the powder to pack. All loads should be checked during the actual reloading cycle. Do not just throw a powder charge and expect it to be the same as during the reloading cycle. Even the amount of powder in the reloader's bottle may cause a slight variance.

Powder exposed to the atmosphere can pick up moisture and weigh heavy.

The larger the flake size, the lighter the charge tends to be.

A machine that is not solidly mounted will usually not throw charges as uniform as one that is.

Single-stage machines will usually throw heavier charges than progressive reloading machines.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 20 gauge reload data
PostPosted: Sat Jan 29, 2011 11:55 am 
Crown Grade
User avatar

Joined: Fri Oct 22, 2004 1:10 am
Posts: 3330
Location: Wichita,KS
Flyman wrote:
Rhett.
What l did was to check the Alliant powder chart for 20g 7/8 at 1200.
It told me 17.5
Then l checked the Mec reload chart and that related to a 26 bushing. at 17.7 as closest.

OK, now l am confused.
I would suspect that the vast majority of guys who reload rely on what these charts suggest.

Are you saying here that one needs to use a 26 bushing and then weigh the powder.
Ok if it is wrong, how then do you determine what bushing to use.
As this would suggest you would need to have a range of bushings to suit that load to determine which one is correct

Therefore how is one to determine what is a correct formula, there must be others here that use this formula.

Further are we saying that this really makes a great deal of difference, l know it is not a safety issue.
If Mec or others are providing data that is wrong then l would suggest they need to correct this issue,
would you not agree.
Who has if any a data chart that is correct.

Many thanks for you advice here. Much appreciated


Me personally, I have never had good luck with the Mec powder charts. It depends on if you use a single stage or a progressive press. With a single stage you will get heavier drops than on a progressive. The chart you are referencing does it state what press they were using? What bushing do you need? Only you can find that out for yourself by weighing the powder drops. I have 3 different Mec 21 bushings and they all drop different. One drops 7/10 of a grain more than the others yet they're all 21's. That's part of the manufacturing process. It ain't perfect. Yes you need a range of bushings. Maybe a 26, 27, and 28. I can't tell you what will work for you. If there was a magic formula it would be out there and someone would be a millionaire because of it. Yes it is a SAFETY issue if you are loading a max load and the bushing drops heavy you could have a catastrophic failure. It may never happen but I wouldn't wanna shoot with you if I knew you had unsafe loading practices. Mec charts are just a suggestion and they have a disclaimer on their site saying this is for reference only. No one has charts that are right on because that would be impossible to achieve. That's my opionions and advice. Use a scale because the life you save by smart reloading may be your own.

Take care,
Rhett

_________________
Artificial intelligence is no match for natural stupidity.
I'm learning you NEVER want to argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.
You should never wrestle with a pig. You'll get dirty and he will enjoy it.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 20 gauge reload data
PostPosted: Sat Jan 29, 2011 12:17 pm 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2010 9:38 pm
Posts: 1059
Location: San Jose, CA
Get a Lyman shotshell book. Read it. Get a scale. Use it.

That 17.5g Unique data is suspect (and uses a different wad than you said you were going to use). Personally, I don't believe that particular load, as ALL the other wads are very close in performance data.

Lots of folks have had good success with universal charge bars. Others don't care for them. It can save having a whole bunch of bushings and bars while allowing you to "dial in" most any charge.

If buying bushings for a specific load, buy at least one bigger and one smaller. You can make them a bit bigger with a file, reamer, counter-sink, dremel, if you REALLY need to. Making them smaller doesn't work as well, but some might use a layer of tape, etc. Conspicuously MARK any you've "adjusted".


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 20 gauge reload data
PostPosted: Sat Jan 29, 2011 9:41 pm 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2011 10:15 am
Posts: 203
doorknob,

yes been loading 12g for years.

Ok, guys given the replys here, ordered a Lyman scale from the big C.
I live real close to a great gun store and will have no problem to change bushings.

I have only one further question. How many of you have seen a incident related to a bad reload, l mean a breech or barrel split.

The only time l have seen a barrel split, that after being in the company of shooters for more than 50 years and seeing 1000s of shots made was when a guy who was part of a duck hunt in the marshes we were hunting split his barrel. The only logical answer for that was due to the fact he dropped his gun earlier in the day and did not check the barrels were clean. No one was hurt by the way.

Many thanks guys l appreciate the response.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 20 gauge reload data
PostPosted: Sat Jan 29, 2011 9:57 pm 
Crown Grade
User avatar

Joined: Fri Oct 22, 2004 1:10 am
Posts: 3330
Location: Wichita,KS
I have seen a Remington 3200 split up and away. The top barrel was blown open about halfway down the barrel and several pieces sheared off. It was a judge's gun that shoots @ our club all the time. The round didn't sound really loud but we heard a boom then ping and saw pieces fly. Thankfully no one was hurt but still scary.
Take care,
Rhett

_________________
Artificial intelligence is no match for natural stupidity.
I'm learning you NEVER want to argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.
You should never wrestle with a pig. You'll get dirty and he will enjoy it.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 20 gauge reload data
PostPosted: Sat Jan 29, 2011 9:59 pm 
Crown Grade
User avatar

Joined: Fri Aug 25, 2006 5:24 pm
Posts: 5367
Flyman, it sounds like you're heading in the right direction!

Don't draw any untoward conclusions from your friend's incident--as you already surmised it was likely a barrel obstruction rather than a reloading phenomenon.

Welcome to the forum!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 20 gauge reload data
PostPosted: Sat Jan 29, 2011 10:14 pm 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2011 10:15 am
Posts: 203
Thankyou.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 20 gauge reload data
PostPosted: Sun Jan 30, 2011 8:34 pm 
Presentation Grade
User avatar

Joined: Sun Nov 23, 2003 12:21 am
Posts: 624
Location: tennessee
Shotshell
20 Gauge
•2 3/4-in. Winchester AA Plastic Shells
•7/8 shot wt.

Dram Equiv. Shot Wt.
(ounces) Velocity
(fps) Primer Powder Wad Grains Approx. psi Spacers Print
--- 7/8 1,155 Win 209 Unique CB1078-20 15 10,200 - View this recipe
--- 7/8 1,200 Win 209 Unique CB1078-20 16 11,200 - View this recipe


From Alliant's web site

_________________
Three Feathers


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 20 gauge reload data
PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 3:26 pm 
Utility Grade

Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 8:35 am
Posts: 18
Location: Way northern NY, 4th coast area
This may be a little late, but better late than never. I too have reloaded pistol and rifle for years, with the only problems being 2 .38 sp loads that I missed putting powder in, early in my reloading career. Since then I have learned to be much more careful.
When I decided that I wanted to reload for shotgunning late last year, I came here, Cuz when it comes to shotguns I was dumb as a post. I asked questions specific to my lack of experience and read Lyman number 3...and was advised that it was good info but some information was outdated, so I bought a Lyman #5 for more current information, especially as to hulls to reload. That was for starters.
One thing I learned right off is MEC bushing charts lie. They are a starting point only. The bottle of Unique i started with would drop 16.5 grains in a #25 bushing. The next smallest I had was a #22 that dropped about 13.9 grains. I got a #24 and it was dropping 15.8 grains, close enough. The next jug of Unique however, was different. It dropped about .6 grains lighter. To me, that was too much to give up. So more bushing switching. You gotta weigh the powder, and I recommend that you weigh it by going through the reload sequence, that way you know the powder is settled, the mechanics of your process are fairly stable and as a result, the drops will be more accurate. I now drop ten loads of powder before I start actually loading shells. As I stated in an earlier post today, the results were very consistent. This has been my observation, YMMV.

boox

_________________
"If someone has a gun and is trying to kill you, it would be reasonable to shoot back with your own gun."
The Dali Lama


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 20 gauge reload data
PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 10:00 pm 
Field Grade

Joined: Wed Nov 18, 2009 10:15 pm
Posts: 76
I would ask if you have another powder besides Red Dot. It is a soft-recoiling 12 gauge target powder and not good for 20. I shoot 20 gauge and used Hogdon Universal and now Unique. Herco and the new 20/28 are good to excellent Alliant 20 gauge powders, just off the top of my head.

I use my dad's old reloader (CRAP! Can't remember the name. Lyman One shot or something. The old red one. Anyhow) But he has lost most all its bushings except for the one that drops 7/8 oz shot.
So with no powder bushing, I use an empty 45 ACP case, cut to length and packed with a wadding that gives me, say, 15 gr Universal or 23 gr. BlueDot. (I have several, all with nails brazed on and driven into wooden dowels for a handle.) I do a few on the balance to adjust my 'eyeball-ametric' calibration. I check again on the balance every 15-20 or so to keep me on track. I'm not outside of 1 grain variance with this method.
So, For what its worth... That probably has some people pulling their hair out. "NOOOO!! you can't do that!!" The guys I shoot with using powder bushings in MEC reloaders shoot some noticeably quiet (under loaded) rounds once in a while. That method isn't perfect and I'm not worried that I'm doing something very risky.

Shotgun reloading just isn't anywhere as critical as Rifle. One is cooking soup, the other is more akin to baking a soufle. But, certainly, I'd go out and spend $20 on a pound of Unique.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 20 gauge reload data
PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 3:43 pm 
Limited Edition

Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2006 8:49 pm
Posts: 412
Location: USA
Sylvaneous' post reminds why I'm often nervous when shooting beside other reloaders.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 30 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Registered users: AdsBot [Google], Bing [Bot], ferlach, Google [Bot], Google Adsense [Bot], greensock, jamese2841, k8023935, liljake82, maierar, Majestic-12 [Bot], MSN [Bot], oldtechshooter, tiffy


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group     -  DMCA Notice