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 Post subject: One ounce 20 gauge vs one ounce 12 gauge for skeet
PostPosted: Tue Mar 08, 2011 8:49 am 
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Location: Dickson, TN
I recently spotted one ounce loads for 20 gauge Remington Hulls in Skeet Shooting Review. I've loaded them with my traditional 12 gauge shot load, number 8.5s, for skeet and used them in my 12 and doubles events. Does a one ounce of 12 gauge skeet load pattern any different than a one ounce 20 gauge load skeet choked? Of course I use the same shotgun and same point of aim, just with 20 gauge tubes inserted. I have Briley Skeet chokes and tubes and a set of Tru chokes in the 12 gauge. In the same vein, does one ounce offer significant handicap to a 1 1/8 ounce load? There are some good skeet shooters who use 20 gauge in 12 gauge events and even in doubles. Thanks!



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 Post subject: Re: One ounce 20 gauge vs one ounce 12 gauge for skeet
PostPosted: Tue Mar 08, 2011 8:52 am 
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redhawk500 wrote:
Does a one ounce of 12 gauge skeet load pattern any different than a one ounce 20 gauge load skeet choked?


Not if they are choked the same, i.e throw the same percentage.

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 Post subject: Re: One ounce 20 gauge vs one ounce 12 gauge for skeet
PostPosted: Tue Mar 08, 2011 9:31 am 
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Patterns....go shoot some patterns and find out, that is the only way you will know for sure how they pattern through your tubes and chokes.

I would rather shoot 1 oz through a 12 gauge...bigger bore. Actually, I've been shooting a 3/4 oz 20 in Doubles, 12, 20 events just because I like this soft shooting load....I think it helps, I know it does not hurt.

Be sure and check the pressure of those 1 oz 20's....your 20 tubes are the thinnest and the most likely to crack under heavy pressure.

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 Post subject: Re: One ounce 20 gauge vs one ounce 12 gauge for skeet
PostPosted: Tue Mar 08, 2011 9:41 am 
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+1 on Mismost's concerns regarding pressure with skeet tubes. Most people seem to want to keep the pressures of shells for 20 gauge sub-gauge tubes below 10,000 PSI. There do appear to be some 20 gauge 1 ounce loads that come in under this ceiling, but most are over 10,500 and many over 11,000. Fine for barrels, but I think that many would say this may be too much for sub-gauge tubes.

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 Post subject: Re: One ounce 20 gauge vs one ounce 12 gauge for skeet
PostPosted: Tue Mar 08, 2011 9:50 am 
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I haven't shot registered birds in a long time, but isn't the maximum legal shot weight in 20 gauge 7/8 oz?

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 Post subject: Re: One ounce 20 gauge vs one ounce 12 gauge for skeet
PostPosted: Tue Mar 08, 2011 10:51 am 
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sneem, not if you are using them in the 12 gauge or doubles event as he stated. You can go up to 1 1/8 oz in those cases.

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 Post subject: Re: One ounce 20 gauge vs one ounce 12 gauge for skeet
PostPosted: Tue Mar 08, 2011 3:54 pm 
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Customstox wrote:
sneem, not if you are using them in the 12 gauge or doubles event as he stated. You can go up to 1 1/8 oz in those cases.


That makes sense. I would not trust myself. I know somewhere along the line I'd get them mixed up.

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 Post subject: Re: One ounce 20 gauge vs one ounce 12 gauge for skeet
PostPosted: Tue Mar 08, 2011 4:28 pm 
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Here are the facts as I know them to be. Your idea may differ.

1 oz. loads out of a 20 ga. do not perform as well as out of a 12 ga. Patterns are usually not very even and/or concentric, and velocities are usually somewhat slower than desirable, even in Factory loads. Regardless of what it says on the box.

I know just about every one of the top 20 or 30 Skeet Shooters in the nation. Those who shoot the 20 ga. in 12 ga. and Doubles events, use standard 7/8 oz. Skeet loads. There might be an exception there somewhere, but I'm not aware of it. Most, (Not All), top shooters ditch the 12 ga. early in their careers, and never shoot them again.

Standard 7/8 oz. 20 ga. loads simply perform superior to 1 oz. 20 ga. loads, as far as I have been able to ascertain, at least they have for me. The pattern board doesn't lie.

That being said, I do know some Skeeters who use 1 oz. loads in 12 ga. events as well as Doubles. I don't know of even one of them that the ammo seems to enhance their scores. All are so-so mediocre shooters.

To me it's the "More is Better" syndrome, and it just doesn't always work that way.

Again, YMMV

DLM

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 Post subject: Re: One ounce 20 gauge vs one ounce 12 gauge for skeet
PostPosted: Tue Mar 08, 2011 4:42 pm 
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D L Marcum wrote:
Again, YMMV
DLM


Now that you mention it, it did. Maybe you weren't properly choked for 1 ounce 20.

The Cooley Brothers used them very well. They felt the secret to using them was not to go for a higher pellet count, but to use the extra payload to keep pellet count up while going to a larger shot size.

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 Post subject: Re: One ounce 20 gauge vs one ounce 12 gauge for skeet
PostPosted: Tue Mar 08, 2011 5:20 pm 
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Here's somoe of a previous post of mine where I patterned 1 oz loads from a 20ga and 12ga to compare performance. They aren't skeet loads or at skeet distances but thought it might be relevent to this discussion.

Pattern results that compare two similar 1-ounce #7 ½ lead factory loads shot through 20-gauge and 12-gauge guns. They aren't exactly the same load (not sure how you could do that anyway), but close enough to show the patterning differences of the two gauges (these two guns anyway). The patterns are the average of five shots, 30" post-shot scribed circle, yardage taped muzzle to target, and the in-shell pellet count is the average of five shells.

20-gauge Browning Invector-plus w/ 28" barrel and Briley flush chokes
REM SURESHOT 1 oz #7 ½ lead (349 pellets) @ 1,165 fps
30 YARDS
CYL / 179 (51%)
SK / 221 (63%)
IC / 249 (71%)

12-gauge Browning Invector-plus w/ 28" barrel and Briley flush chokes
WIN AA XTR-LITE 1 oz #7 ½ lead (344 pellets) @ 1,180 fps
30 YARDS
CYL / 194 (56%)
SK / 248 (72%)
IC / 288 (84%)

In this pattern test, the larger 12 bore showed it was more “efficient” (about 5-10%) than the 20 bore. As you can see from the pattern numbers, it took an IC choke in the 20-gauge to match the performance level of the SK choke in the 12-gauge.

Many factors influence patterning, but I believe this patterning shows the general principle of larger bores being more “efficient” than smaller bores. However, the 12-gauge load was a target load while the 20-gauge was more of a field load so the pellets may not be of the same quality (antimony content) which could affect patterning and allow the 12-gauge to shoot this particular load better than the 20-gauge.

In practical terms, the effectiveness exhibited with the same payload and shot size between 20- and 12-gauge bores would be insignificant as long as they were both choked properly to attain similar pattern numbers at the distance they were used. That said, it looks as though the larger bore can usually do that with less choke constriction.

Good luck.


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 Post subject: Re: One ounce 20 gauge vs one ounce 12 gauge for skeet
PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 7:05 pm 
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Joined: Sat Aug 02, 2008 6:09 pm
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Location: Dickson, TN
stripersonfly wrote:
+1 on Mismost's concerns regarding pressure with skeet tubes. Most people seem to want to keep the pressures of shells for 20 gauge sub-gauge tubes below 10,000 PSI. There do appear to be some 20 gauge 1 ounce loads that come in under this ceiling, but most are over 10,500 and many over 11,000. Fine for barrels, but I think that many would say this may be too much for sub-gauge tubes.

Specifics on load are as follows:
Case 20 ga. Remington STS
Primer: Rem. 209P
Powder: 15.5 gr. Alliant 20/28
Wad: Windjammer
Shot: 1 oz. lead
1,200 fps @ 9,150 fps
If the powder is increased to 16.5 gr. 20/28 the velocity and pressure are 1,250 fps @ 10,510 psi
I am using 16.0 grains, just because my MEC #20 bushing dumps that much.

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 Post subject: Re: One ounce 20 gauge vs one ounce 12 gauge for skeet
PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 7:54 pm 
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What is the origin of that recipe? I checked the Alliant website, the Windjammer website and the Lyman Vol. #5 and there are no 1 ounce loads listed for 20/28 powder. That pressure you list is highly suspect.


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 Post subject: Re: One ounce 20 gauge vs one ounce 12 gauge for skeet
PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 1:54 pm 
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Based on my experience, a given load will usually perform better in a larger bore. This can, however, can be a bit deveiving. You need to really analyze the pattern, particularly pellet distribution to see any real gain. And, that gain may only be half an inch of effective pattern! In other words, yes, the 12ga technically will produce better patterns on average, but the targets are VERY unlikely to notice any difference.

That said, I'd be more worried about shooting an oucne in tubes. Besides, when you come right down to it, there ain't a heck of a lot of difference in performance between an ounce and 7/8ths of an ounce.

Frank

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 Post subject: Re: One ounce 20 gauge vs one ounce 12 gauge for skeet
PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2011 2:59 am 
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Location: Dickson, TN
stripersonfly wrote:
+1 on Mismost's concerns regarding pressure with skeet tubes. Most people seem to want to keep the pressures of shells for 20 gauge sub-gauge tubes below 10,000 PSI. There do appear to be some 20 gauge 1 ounce loads that come in under this ceiling, but most are over 10,500 and many over 11,000. Fine for barrels, but I think that many would say this may be too much for sub-gauge tubes.

Load data is from the May 2009 SSR. Dick Quesenberry of Alliant Powder developed and tested the loads.
Specifics on load are as follows:
Case 20 ga. Remington STS
Primer: Rem. 209P
Powder: 15.5 gr. Alliant 20/28
Wad: Windjammer
Shot: 1 oz. lead
1,200 fps @ 9,150 fps
If the powder is increased to 16.5 gr. 20/28 the velocity and pressure are 1,250 fps @ 10,510 psi
I am using 16.0 grains, just because my MEC #20 bushing dumps that much.

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 Post subject: Re: One ounce 20 gauge vs one ounce 12 gauge for skeet
PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2011 2:56 pm 
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Joined: Wed Nov 25, 2009 11:45 am
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(First of all, I'm with Mismost on the pressure issue in 20 ga. tubes.)

Let's also remember that we have to deal with the shot string as well, not just the pattern on a flat board.

IMHO, a 20 ga. with the same payload will have more of a shot string than the 12 ga. How much of a difference? Not sure.

I haven't done the research, but similar testing was done by Bob Brister several decades ago. He had his wife drive their family station wagon across a field pulling a trailer with a pattern board on it. This allowed him to address the issue of stringing shot. If you read his book (Shotgunning: The Art and Science) it will amaze you how far back some of the shot will string. This is the real test. Not sure if he specifically tested similar loads in 12 vs. 20. I will have to pull the book down from the shelf for another read.

With that said, I will say that I stay within the limits of the most efficient loads in each gauge. And for 20 gauge, that is 7/8 oz.

Good luck.


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 Post subject: Re: One ounce 20 gauge vs one ounce 12 gauge for skeet
PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2011 6:57 am 
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Some simple math would give the importance of shot stringing, simplifying a little and assuming a 90 degree angle between the clay pigeon and the shot string Say the pattern is 30 inches in diameter, with a radius of 1.25 feet. The shot starts at 1200 fps but is slowed to 1100 fps at the bird. this pigeon is going 66 fps or 45 mph. It travels 1.25 feet in 0.019 seconds. The shot travels 20.8 feet in this same period of time. If the pattern is tapered, elliptical, or teardrop shaped, then their must be a point of highest diameter, not exactly at the beginning or end of the string. Then length is even less critical as all of the edge pellets have passed a given point before the last shot in the center of the pattern. All the available pellets have an opportunity to strike the clay pigeon. Also the pigeon is moving sideways through the moving stream, giving an elongated opportunity to be struck, not just by the pellets in an 1 1/2 by 4 1/2 inch area but whatever tipping increases the opportunity of impact as well as a 1.25 foot slide sideways through the pattern. All this to say the same dynamic occurs with 7/8 ounce and one ounce of shot. Wouldn't this in some small way increase the probability of pellet strikes? I'm sure experts here can describe the actual shape of a moving shot string and thus fine tune my illustration.

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 Post subject: Re: One ounce 20 gauge vs one ounce 12 gauge for skeet
PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2011 1:56 pm 
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Joined: Wed Nov 25, 2009 11:45 am
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Redhawk, are you saying that shot stringing INCREASES the number of pellets on target?!?! Really?!?! If that's what you are saying, then you really need to read the book I mentioned.

If shot is strung out behind the mass of the shot load, then it will take longer to reach the target, giving the target more time to move out of the pattern. Therefore, it gets strung out behind the target.


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 Post subject: Re: One ounce 20 gauge vs one ounce 12 gauge for skeet
PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2011 2:31 pm 
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Redhawk said: "The shot starts at 1200 fps but is slowed to 1100 fps at the bird."

My Lyman shotshell handbook 3rd edition says that a #9 pellet that leaves the muzzle at 1200fps will be going 820fps at 20yds and a #8 pellet with the came muzzle velocity will be going 850fps at 20yds.


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 Post subject: Re: One ounce 20 gauge vs one ounce 12 gauge for skeet
PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2011 6:41 pm 
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Location: Dickson, TN
tractorboy wrote:
Redhawk said: "The shot starts at 1200 fps but is slowed to 1100 fps at the bird."

My Lyman shotshell handbook 3rd edition says that a #9 pellet that leaves the muzzle at 1200fps will be going 820fps at 20yds and a #8 pellet with the came muzzle velocity will be going 850fps at 20yds.

I should have looked it up instead of guessing, sorry! Make that pattern length somewhere near 19 feet.

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 Post subject: Re: One ounce 20 gauge vs one ounce 12 gauge for skeet
PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2011 10:01 pm 
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I prefer 7/8 oz shot in 12 or 20. One ounce kicks too much.



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