CalendarCalendar   Photos  * FAQ
It is currently Sat Aug 02, 2014 3:35 am

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 21 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Turkeys with a .410??
PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2011 7:19 pm 
Diamond Grade
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2011 4:48 pm
Posts: 1043
Location: The Lowcountry of SC
Not exactly sure what show it was, but I recently saw a turkey hunt that had a kid shooting turkeys with a 410. At first I thought to myself, this kid at least needs a 20 to shoot a turkey. Well, that 410 sure did a number on that turkey at about 25 yards. I've got a 410 single shot that I considered shooting a turkey with, but it throws a horrible pattern. I wouldn't even think of shooting at a turkey past 15 yds with this gun. What do ya'll think? Is a 410 too small for turkeys? Or is it ok in the hands of an experienced hunter that will not make a hasty, unethical shot?

_________________
"I'm all in favor of keeping dangerous weapons out of the hands of fools. Let's start with typewriters."
- Frank Lloyd Wright


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Turkeys with a .410??
PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2011 8:29 am 
Presentation Grade
User avatar

Joined: Fri Sep 19, 2008 8:39 am
Posts: 604
Location: NC
It isn't a matter of how big the gun is, it's a matter of what the pattern and pellets are doing out there.

Here's a .410 40 yd pattern that is better than a lot of guys' 12 ga pattern. That's a 10" and 20" circle.

Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Turkeys with a .410??
PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2011 10:25 am 
Crown Grade

Joined: Fri Jul 30, 2004 7:54 pm
Posts: 2858
Location: SW Va
SC,
A 410 will kill a turkey, but there are limitations. It's gonna have to be close and somebody had better be buying and patterning shells. My 410 hates, literally despises, any shell that measures 3''s. Stick a 2.5'' one in and it shoots one of the tightest patterns you've ever seen. BUT...get a big ole fox squill, sitting in the top of a tall hickory and it's a maybe as to whether you can knock him out of the tree. These little guns just don't seem to carry much energy, very far.

HWD

_________________
Proud parent of a USMC Gunny!


My Marine kicked cancer's a$$!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Turkeys with a .410??
PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2011 2:23 pm 
Presentation Grade
User avatar

Joined: Fri Sep 19, 2008 8:39 am
Posts: 604
Location: NC
huntswithdogs wrote:
These little guns just don't seem to carry much energy, very far.


It depends on what is in the shell, and what .410 it is.

For example, the shot in the above .410's pattern, will carry more penetration energy into it's target at 40 yds than a 12 ga. 3" magnum 1-7/8 oz shell loaded with lead #5s going 250 fps faster.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Turkeys with a .410??
PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2011 11:44 pm 
Diamond Grade
User avatar

Joined: Sat Feb 05, 2011 2:48 pm
Posts: 1016
Location: Sw VA
hawglips wrote:
huntswithdogs wrote:
These little guns just don't seem to carry much energy, very far.


It depends on what is in the shell, and what .410 it is.

For example, the shot in the above .410's pattern, will carry more penetration energy into it's target at 40 yds than a 12 ga. 3" magnum 1-7/8 oz shell loaded with lead #5s going 250 fps faster.


That is a nice pattern. But if what you say is true then wouldn't most folks be carrying .410's to turkey hunt with? I just don't see how the .410 could carry more penetration energy than a 12 ga. 3" magnum 1-7/8 oz shell loaded with lead #5s. What size shot did you use in the above pattern?

_________________
"In order to be effective, the truth must pierce like an arrow. That is likely to hurt." - Wei Wu Wei


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Turkeys with a .410??
PostPosted: Fri Mar 25, 2011 9:24 am 
Presentation Grade
User avatar

Joined: Fri Sep 19, 2008 8:39 am
Posts: 604
Location: NC
fishinpolejoe wrote:
That is a nice pattern. But if what you say is true then wouldn't most folks be carrying .410's to turkey hunt with? I just don't see how the .410 could carry more penetration energy than a 12 ga. 3" magnum 1-7/8 oz shell loaded with lead #5s. What size shot did you use in the above pattern?


Most folks are not shooting 18g/cc shot, nor using a sporting clays .410 with XF choke, as I did to get the above pattern. Unless they are, it would not be very likely to get patterns at 40 yds anything like that. I am not recommending anyone use a 410 for turkeys unless they are shooting within the limitations of the particular gun/ammo combo they are using. Most are probably 15 to 20 yd max effective range.

I'm just demonstrating that it's not just bore size, but other factors that determine what kind of energy penetrates into the target, and how effective a small bored gun can be. You can somewhat overcome the handicap of a small bore by shooting a better shell.

Here's the numbers comparing 1-7/8 oz of #5 lead, vs the much slower 3/4 oz load of 18g/cc shot out of a .410, at 40 yds.

#5 lead, 1-7/8 oz, 1200 fps
pellet count: 322
Energy Density: 245.4
Ball. Gel. penetration: 1.96"

#9 18g/cc tungsten, 3/4 oz, 1060 fps
pellet count: 270
Energy Density: 247.4
Ball. Gel. penetration: 2.07"


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Turkeys with a .410??
PostPosted: Fri Mar 25, 2011 9:59 am 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Fri Dec 31, 2010 3:39 pm
Posts: 191
Location: Georgia
I would stick with my twelve SC. No more than you ve killed you would probably be dissappointed if you got that bird to 35yds and had to watch him slide off. Stay with the 12ga and just work on your set up to see what little things make that bird come just a couple yards closer. One tip would be to, if the bird is in front of you of course, put your decoys behind you off your right shoulder about 25 yards. I use this when possible. If he hangs up 60 yards from the decoys he's only 35 yards from me. Hope that helps.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Turkeys with a .410??
PostPosted: Fri Mar 25, 2011 11:14 am 
*Proud to be a*
*Proud to be a*
User avatar

Joined: Fri Mar 04, 2011 4:42 pm
Posts: 1117
Location: Silicon Valley, California
hawglips wrote:
Here's the numbers comparing 1-7/8 oz of #5 lead, vs the much slower 3/4 oz load of 18g/cc shot out of a .410, at 40 yds.

#5 lead, 1-7/8 oz, 1200 fps
pellet count: 322
Energy Density: 245.4
Ball. Gel. penetration: 1.96"

#9 18g/cc tungsten, 3/4 oz, 1060 fps
pellet count: 270
Energy Density: 247.4
Ball. Gel. penetration: 2.07"

Hawglips --

Where did you get these numbers? What chokes were used in the 12 gauge data? I'm having a real hard time believing this.

It looks like the ballistic Geletin penetration is vertually a tie. I really don't think 0.11 inches would matter that much. I've never heard of 'Energy Density', but it seems to me that a lighter pellet (#9 vs #5) and less velocity (1200 fps vs. 1060 fps) would yield a lower energy value. How do you calculate 'Energy Density"?

_________________
Benelli - Cordoba (20 ga. & 12 ga.)
Browning - 725 Sporting (12 ga.), Maxus (Hunter & MAX-4 Stalker)
Franchi - Renaissance (20 ga.)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Turkeys with a .410??
PostPosted: Fri Mar 25, 2011 11:36 am 
Presentation Grade
User avatar

Joined: Fri Sep 19, 2008 8:39 am
Posts: 604
Location: NC
http://shotshellballistic.blogspot.com/

But I've also done my own penetration tests that verified the math.

Energy density is ft/lbs per sq in .... KE divided by cross sectional area.

Heavier or lighter doesn't decide anything in and of itself, when it comes to penetration. Think volleyball vs golf ball, as an extreme example.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Turkeys with a .410??
PostPosted: Fri Mar 25, 2011 12:20 pm 
Diamond Grade
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2011 4:48 pm
Posts: 1043
Location: The Lowcountry of SC
Thanks for the feedback ya'll! I may have attempted turkey hunting with a .410 if mine threw a pattern like Hawglips' gun, but I think I'll stick to my 935.

@ranger07 - thanks for the tip on setting the decoys behind me. Only hard part about that is if they come from behind. I hunt mostly thick woods with swampy creek bottoms. They've gone silent for the last few days, so I don't know where in the heck they're coming from! Thanks!

_________________
"I'm all in favor of keeping dangerous weapons out of the hands of fools. Let's start with typewriters."
- Frank Lloyd Wright


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Turkeys with a .410??
PostPosted: Fri Mar 25, 2011 10:29 pm 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Fri Dec 31, 2010 3:39 pm
Posts: 191
Location: Georgia
I know what you mean man thats all ive ever hunted here at home, and when they get silent they are tough. That decoy set up works best in draws, natural funnels, and logging roads I should have been a little more specific. No matter what we learn they will always teach us more. I ve had "perfect" set ups like this and the turkey will circle me, so just use it when it feels right and it will all come together the more you try different things.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Turkeys with a .410??
PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2011 10:30 pm 
Presentation Grade

Joined: Wed Mar 11, 2009 6:57 pm
Posts: 521
Location: Washington
I'll bite, why not use the same heavy metal in a larger shell for better penetration benefit, but with a larger load carrying larger pellets? Something like #7-1/2 shot in 18g/cc with a 1-1/2 oz load going 1200 fps. Sure tungsten is expensive, but this isn't a dove shoot. Taking a shot at a turkey isn't the time to be stingy or esoteric.

I'm just playing the devil's advocate here, feel invited to flame me.

_________________
"You look like a chukar hunter, you have big thighs and a small head."


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Turkeys with a .410??
PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2011 9:02 am 
Presentation Grade
User avatar

Joined: Fri Sep 19, 2008 8:39 am
Posts: 604
Location: NC
With the 18g/cc shot, I shoot a 2 oz load in 12 ga, and a 1-5/8 oz load in the 20 ga. I also have a 1-5/16 oz load in the 28 ga, and the 3/4 oz load in the .410.

But I won't use #7.5s, unless I duplex it with #9s. It's too large, and is counterproductive in the 18g/cc shot because you've already got excess oomph with that size. All you're doing is needlessly deteriorating patterns. Already with #9s going slow, you get more penteration than #4 lead through bone.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Turkeys with a .410??
PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2011 9:15 pm 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Fri Dec 31, 2010 3:39 pm
Posts: 191
Location: Georgia
Hawglips are you shooting TSS. TSS is the only shot to my knowledge that is 18 gr/cc. Is there another "brand" or something as good or better than TSS? How much is a ten pound bag or whatever increments you get whatever it is you are shooting? I love the idea, I wish I could afford it but I highly doubt I would be able to. You are right all that extra energy allows you to shoot many more pellets which is a double whammy.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Turkeys with a .410??
PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 9:22 am 
Presentation Grade
User avatar

Joined: Fri Sep 19, 2008 8:39 am
Posts: 604
Location: NC
Ranger, it's not TSS, but it's 18g/cc shot that I bring in myself. It's currently costing me $40 a pound. I bring it in for myself and a bunch of other guys on a couple turkey forums I frequent. I sometimes have extra available, mostly 8s and 9s only, with the occasional 7s, and maybe something larger for yotes and deer.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Turkeys with a .410??
PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 6:57 pm 
Presentation Grade

Joined: Wed Mar 11, 2009 6:57 pm
Posts: 521
Location: Washington
hawglips wrote:
With the 18g/cc shot, I shoot a 2 oz load in 12 ga, and a 1-5/8 oz load in the 20 ga. I also have a 1-5/16 oz load in the 28 ga, and the 3/4 oz load in the .410.

But I won't use #7.5s, unless I duplex it with #9s. It's too large, and is counterproductive in the 18g/cc shot because you've already got excess oomph with that size. All you're doing is needlessly deteriorating patterns. Already with #9s going slow, you get more penteration than #4 lead through bone.


1-5/8oz in a 20 must generate some serious pressure. What speed are you pushing it down the barrel and where did you get reloading data for it? What is the added benefit of the larger load?

_________________
"You look like a chukar hunter, you have big thighs and a small head."


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Turkeys with a .410??
PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2011 2:57 pm 
Presentation Grade
User avatar

Joined: Fri Sep 19, 2008 8:39 am
Posts: 604
Location: NC
It generates less pressure than most 1-1/4 oz loads.

The 1-5/8 oz 20 ga. load goes 1100 fps, and is rated at 10722 psi at the lab. I created the data for it. There is no published data for loads like this, so I have had to develop the loads with this shot myself.

Here's the benefit of the heavier 1-5/8 oz 20 ga. turkey load:

40 yds, 10" and 20" circles
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Turkeys with a .410??
PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2011 3:02 pm 
Diamond Grade
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2011 4:48 pm
Posts: 1043
Location: The Lowcountry of SC
@hawglips - Good lord man, that's a heck of a pattern! I'd be afraid to take a shot less than 20 yds with that load. How's your expansion at close range?

_________________
"I'm all in favor of keeping dangerous weapons out of the hands of fools. Let's start with typewriters."
- Frank Lloyd Wright


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Turkeys with a .410??
PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2011 9:00 pm 
Presentation Grade

Joined: Wed Mar 11, 2009 6:57 pm
Posts: 521
Location: Washington
Well that is a heck of a pattern. How far out does the #9 carry enough oomph for adequate penetration? I bet that spread would look even better at 50+ yards.

_________________
"You look like a chukar hunter, you have big thighs and a small head."


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Turkeys with a .410??
PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2011 8:04 am 
Presentation Grade
User avatar

Joined: Fri Sep 19, 2008 8:39 am
Posts: 604
Location: NC
I have a 8-9" pattern at 20 yds, if I load it as per the above 20 ga shell, with the same gun and choke. It doesn't need as much choke as lead or hevishot.

In soft tissue, they penetrate like #4 lead. But the #9s will actually penetrate hard material (such as bone or sheet metal) better than #4 lead, at any range (my own tests). They carry more penetration energy than Hevishot 6s, and virtually identical to Hevishot #5s.

Here's the math at 40 yds (KPY Shotshell Ballistics):

18g/cc 9s at 1100 fps
final velocity: 675
Energy Density: 245.3
ball. gel. penetration: 2.06

Hevishot #6s at 1100 fps
final velocity: 648
Energy Density: 207.7
ball. gel. penetration: 1.74"

Lead #4s at 1100 fps
final velocity: 675
Energy Density: 246.3
ball. gel. penetration: 2.07"

Lead #5s at 1100 fps
final velocity: 651
Energy Density: 211.4
ball. gel. penetration: 1.77"

Hevishot #5, 1100 fps
final velocity: 675
Energy Density: 245.3
ball. gel. penetration: 2.06

The penetration and pattern are more than adequate at 60 yds. I would be called a liar if I told you how far the 9s have killed turkeys with these loads, so I won't bother.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 21 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Registered users: Bing [Bot], chuckler, DavidM100, driller, Google [Bot], Google Adsense [Bot], Google Feedfetcher, MSN [Bot], Redcoat, RudyN, Yahoo [Bot]


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group     -  DMCA Notice