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 Post subject: Re: Unit Lead system for Sporting Clays
PostPosted: Tue Apr 19, 2011 10:11 am 
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Or as someone I know said: "Just put the shot where the target is going to be when the shot gets there." On long shots its 4 bricks and a hammer handle! :lol: :lol: I think thinking it to death only confuses the mind that controls the body. So I let instinct take over.


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 Post subject: Re: Unit Lead system for Sporting Clays
PostPosted: Tue Apr 19, 2011 11:25 am 
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If you read the link in Anthony's post, it is very clear most Top Shooters only see a "gap" and feel the lead. They do not measure and many said they were hard pressed to say either barrel or target. They "feel" the lead. And again most said hard focus on the target.
If we do "look ahead" when the shot is taken, it is not a conscious but a subconscious act.
So being a subconscious act, I'm not sure telling someone "to look ahead" is the best advice.
After reading these posts I tried the "look ahead" as I took the shot, sometimes I was in the area and sometimes not. But when I focus on the target I am much better on every target.


I should say to Mike M., I also tried the diminishing lead with really long targets. I even talked some of my shooting partners to try it. It is now another method in my bag. It works very well on long crossers that have a mostly flat trajectory.


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 Post subject: Re: Unit Lead system for Sporting Clays
PostPosted: Tue Apr 19, 2011 12:00 pm 
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For the longest time I could see lead and where I wanted to shoot.

On days when I could see lead I would shoot in the 80's.

On days when I couldn't see lead I couldn't hit a bull in the a$$ with a 2 x 4!

I just want the trappers to throw the target where my shot is! :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Unit Lead system for Sporting Clays
PostPosted: Tue Apr 19, 2011 12:11 pm 
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I still have not figured out what is being taught here. Do you look at the barrel,the gap or target? In simpler terms where are my eyes suppose to be when the shot is fired?


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 Post subject: Re: Unit Lead system for Sporting Clays
PostPosted: Tue Apr 19, 2011 12:26 pm 
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unplugged wrote:
If you read the link in Anthony's post, it is very clear most Top Shooters only see a "gap" and feel the lead. They do not measure and many said they were hard pressed to say either barrel or target. They "feel" the lead. And again most said hard focus on the target.


I'm well aware of that, as I'm sure is most everyone reading this thread.

Keep in mind, that whether someone is "measuring" or "feeling" the lead, there still is a visual awareness of where the barrels are, what they are doing, and the amount of gap. That shots holes in the earlier statement that:

"If you measure lead you will shoot where your eyes are. If you lock your eyes on the target no measuring is required."

Besides, "feeling the lead" is a just another form of measuring it. It's just not as mentally exacting.

Quote:
If we do "look ahead" when the shot is taken, it is not a conscious but a subconscious act.
So being a subconscious act, I'm not sure telling someone "to look ahead" is the best advice.
After reading these posts I tried the "look ahead" as I took the shot, sometimes I was in the area and sometimes not. But when I focus on the target I am much better on every target.


Just the opposite is true for me. I consider when I do use this look ahead method, it's a total conscious effort. Maybe if I used it more it would be more subconscious.

Just because a method -- any method -- doesn't work well for you, me, or anyone else doesn't mean it isn't a viable option. Especially after the first couple of times trying to employ it.


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 Post subject: Re: Unit Lead system for Sporting Clays
PostPosted: Tue Apr 19, 2011 7:10 pm 
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Unplugged, of course the top shooters feel the lead, I understand that. My first DVD (produced 12 years ago by Sunrise) was called "Read the line, Feel the lead." But they only feel the lead on the targets when they pull that particular presentation out of their repertoire of sight pictures. Re. focus on the target (and this was mentioned on a previous thread) a study was carried out approx. two years ago where 20 top skeet shooters were filmed. As each of them triggered the shot, the camera proved conclusively that their eyes went out in front of the targets to where they wanted their pattern to go. Most of them were completely unaware that they were doing this. I will try to find a copy of the study but I moved house in May and it will be difficult.
Bad 303. When the shot is triggered your eyes should go in front of the target, to a spot where you expect the target to be as the shot pattern arrives there. Just like I say, Richard Faulds says, Jon Kruger says and other top shooters say. In other words, focus intently on the target, to read the line etc, and then for the smallest fraction of time, try to interpret where its going and INSTANTLY trigger the shot. Don't look back at the barrel of target to "measure". Finally, I always try to answer questions to the best of my ability in a logical way that shooters can understand without resorting to a BBB answer!!!


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 Post subject: Re: Unit Lead system for Sporting Clays
PostPosted: Tue Apr 19, 2011 7:30 pm 
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Pete thanks for the response. From what you are saying when a shooter is focusing on the target hard he does not know his eyes look ahead of it at the time of firing. And that verifies what i have always felt. And that is that intense focus on the target and not seeing the barrels lets the mental computer do the work. It always seems the very best rounds a shooter shoots when asked afterwards about lead and sight pictures they seldom remember seeing anything but specific parts of the target. Thus letting the computer do the work. In fact in these cases most of the time the shooter remembers seeing the barrel on a few of the misses. Thanks for your time and responses.


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 Post subject: Re: Unit Lead system for Sporting Clays
PostPosted: Tue Apr 19, 2011 8:00 pm 
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I have the book..."Your behind it!" Is this the same system you wrote about in that book? Churchill seems to work best for me, but your explanation makes Churchill make sense.

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 Post subject: Re: Unit Lead system for Sporting Clays
PostPosted: Tue Apr 19, 2011 8:47 pm 
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Bad 303, If that's what works for you then that's OK but I make my students intentionally move their focus to a spot in front of the target as they trigger the shot. But I show them the unit lead method first so that they know where that spot is. For example, if the target, in the area they intend to shoot it is a narrow angle shot (About 15 degrees relative to their shooting position), they will break that target with a 1 unit lead at 20 yards, 30 yards, 40 yards and 50 yards. The same 1 unit at the muzzle! How can that be? Because by applying lead at the muzzle, the visual lead will be the same as the range increases. Think of it this way. Think of the spokes of a bike wheel. You are standing in the center of the wheel. As the spokes radiate outwards, they also diverge. This means that if you draw a line down the rib of the gun and another one from the shooters eye, these lines will diverge and automatically provide more lead in feet out there at the target. Simple eh?


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 Post subject: Re: Unit Lead system for Sporting Clays
PostPosted: Tue Apr 19, 2011 9:42 pm 
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What about gun speed being different for every shooter? In your example i could see different shooters requiring different amounts of units in order to have consistant success on the very same target. In other words what one shooter sees in order to consistantly break the target another may take more or less units to have the same success. Is the unit method a simplified sustained lead method? If a target beats a shooter say on his first pair how can the unit method then be applied? The gun at that point will be moving much faster than what the shooter would normally see. How long have you taught this method?


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 Post subject: Re: Unit Lead system for Sporting Clays
PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2011 8:34 am 
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Bad 303. You should be shooting sustained lead for most of your targets, ie. syncronizing the gunspeed with the target speed. With swing through or pull-away, two things will vary that you have no control over, 1. shooter reaction time and 2. speed of swing. This will lead to inconsistency. Re. the method. I have been a coach on (both sides of the Atlantic) for over 30 years. I have showed the method to my students during this time and other coaches over here are using the method to coach others, that's why I decided to put all the information down in the form of a book. Just for the record, some of the guys that I coach and have punched up into to Masterclass are now trading as shooting coaches :) which would indicate to me that the method does work! So, why don't I put glowing testimonials from these guys on my web. site? Shooters are skeptical; do you think anyone would believe them? :D


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 Post subject: Re: Unit Lead system for Sporting Clays
PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2011 8:44 am 
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BAD303 wrote:
that verifies what i have always felt. And that is that intense focus on the target and not seeing the barrels lets the mental computer do the work. It always seems the very best rounds a shooter shoots when asked afterwards about lead and sight pictures they seldom remember seeing anything but specific parts of the target. Thus letting the computer do the work. In fact in these cases most of the time the shooter remembers seeing the barrel on a few of the misses.


BAD303.

Please explain to me if you don't see the barrels as part of your sight picture, how do you know or feel the picture is right and time to pull the trigger?

Just because you are totally focused on the targets leading edge DOES NOT mean you are NOT seeing the barrels as well. The difference is the target is in sharp focus and the barrels and gap are a fuzzy blurr. But you have to see and be aware of ALL of that in order to know when the picture is right.


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 Post subject: Re: Unit Lead system for Sporting Clays
PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2011 9:26 am 
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Muledriver, you are correct. I've had this frustrating answer from some of my students over many years in that some shooters will tell you "I never see my barrels" and I can never understand it. You must be able to see you barrels as you shoot, they are central to your line of vision, but you must never look at them. It isn't easy to tell a shooter who says this, (when he is missing a target behind everytime) to see more lead if he doesn't see any in the first place, is it? :D


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 Post subject: Re: Unit Lead system for Sporting Clays
PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2011 9:40 am 
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I think (and I'm C class, so WTF do I know?) that there is two distinct phases of vision when shooting a moving target. To acquire the target you use a different portion of your vision then the moment you pull the trigger. In photography speak, your depth of field is wider and you can see more stuff but not as clearly. This helps you insert the gun on the target. Then your focus transitions to a hard focus on the target. In photography speak, this is like when you zoom in on one object. You can see that object really well, but you can't see anything else around it. If you have established your barrel speed correctly at the insertion point, you don't need to worry about where the barrels are in relation to the target because you know where they are.

At least, that's how I see it.

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 Post subject: Re: Unit Lead system for Sporting Clays
PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2011 10:07 am 
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Again thanks Pete and Mike for your input. Wish I was closer to both of you and get instruction like the Michigan area.. Lead is somewhat a personal thing - for we see it in a different way and perceive it. We should break all the easy targets - but they are for the most part minimal lead. In order to understand lead - one must learn to break that 50yd crosser or long targets, then leads come easier for that 30-40 yd. If I don't hard focus on the target I'll miss more. I always see the barrel in partial focus, and I constantly work on shooting in front and below the target - as we all know most targets are coming down when we trigger the shot.


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 Post subject: Re: Unit Lead system for Sporting Clays
PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2011 11:08 am 
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marist89 wrote:
I'm C class, so WTF do I know?


I think you need to add this to your sig line.

Two more punches and I will be in B. I can't wait for the knowledge I will gain.

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 Post subject: Re: Unit Lead system for Sporting Clays
PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2011 11:42 am 
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xsshooter wrote:
marist89 wrote:
I'm C class, so WTF do I know?


I think you need to add this to your sig line.

Two more punches and I will be in B. I can't wait for the knowledge I will gain.

One more in C and I'll join you in B.

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 Post subject: Re: Unit Lead system for Sporting Clays
PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2011 11:48 am 
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OK guys, here's the deal. I have been a full time shooting coach for over 35 years on both sides of the Atlantic. I write books on shotgunning and technical articles for Sporting Clays mag. and I have done for 9 years. The Unit Lead system works. It is the result of many years of research. You will learn how much lead to give a target and also how far underneath you must shoot on a transitioning target and I give you the figures to back it up. The full color diagrams in the book were produced by ClayShootingUSA. Why would I write a book that is complete bull and lose my credibility by doing that? The price of the book is about 1/5 th of what you would pay for a one hour shooting lesson. Doesn't that sound like a good deal?


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 Post subject: Re: Unit Lead system for Sporting Clays
PostPosted: Sat Apr 23, 2011 10:50 pm 
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I think Sera is closer to the truth in that weather you try to hard focus on the target and let your sub-councious set the lead or try to use a "unit-of-lead" method the game today requires many many practice targets and lots of experience before you develop the "target" knowledge and shooting methods required to be competent and consistent shooting the varied presentations, angles and distance/speed targets that you see in todays Sporting Clays game. Bottom line, no "one" method or "system" is all inclusive. You need a combination of shooting methods and styles depending on the target presentation and conditions and lots of practice, practice, practice. Rholderf3

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 Post subject: Re: Unit Lead system for Sporting Clays
PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 8:49 am 
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RholderF3, I would agree with you post in part. Of course SC needs lots of practice. But I am always surprised with some of my clients who have struggled for years to punch up in class and doggedly continue to pay their coach large sums of money without seeing much improvement. Believe me, I get lots of those guys! Once your mechanics are good, ie. your gun is a good fit, you can control the gun it efficiently and you have identified any eye dominance problems, success on a SC course is down to accurately reading targets. Period. No matter what others may tell you, this isn't instinct, it is intuitive. In other words, you must over a period of time, learn to do it and build up a reportoire of sight pictures that you know to be correct. Unfortunately, the nature of the beast is such that most guys that shoot a shotgun consider themselves to be a shooting coach but the bottom line is this. Shooting lessons are expensive. You are paying your coach for a service to improve your shot-gunning skills. Your coach should be able to explain how to read SC targets in a logical way based on the laws of Physics and Trigonometry, not instinct. If he can't, and If you don't see improvement, don't pay him and change your coach.


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