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 Post subject: What's the Remington Model 10 story?
PostPosted: Fri May 13, 2011 10:09 pm 
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I bought the only Rem Model 10 shotgun I've ever actually seen today for $180 cash out the door. I've only read a little about them, and all that was bad.;)

Only a hard core Remington fan could love this gun. Winchester must have had some strong patents on the 1897. The M10 has this little flipper to load shells and eject them out the bottom. Cool it is, smooth it ain't.

Mine is a 12 gauge, 28" Modified choke, and really cherry for the era. A good 85 per cent condition gun, no major scratches or dents in the wood, and looks unmessed with. Serial number is 190xxx. Top of barrel says "The Remington Arms Union Metallic Ctg. Co. Inc.
Remington Ilion Works Ilion New York U.S.A.
(then 1903 and 1906 patents)

My old gunsmith books say they gave problems. I suppose they are safe,,,just a complicated design prone to wear.

Anybody know the story on a slide action, hammerless, bottom ejecting, Remington Model 10? I'd love to know more.


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 Post subject: Re: What's the Remington Model 10 story?
PostPosted: Sat May 14, 2011 10:49 am 
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When they work, they are fine. When they get out of time there is no one left alive who can fix them. Conceived by Remington's designer John D. Pedersen, the gun was introduced in the Remington Arms Co. 1908-09 catalogue as the Remington Repeating Shotgun. In 1911, M. Hartley Dodge combined his firearms and ammunition companies as Remington Arms - Union Metallic Cartridge Co., and shortly thereafter they began calling the gun the Model No. 10. A gun in the 190xxx range would be from July 1920, right at the time the company name was changed to Remington Arms Co., Inc.


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 Post subject: Re: What's the Remington Model 10 story?
PostPosted: Sat May 14, 2011 12:01 pm 
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Thanks researcher! Makes me want a Model 17 and a Model 29 to keep it company.;)

Haven't shot the M10 yet, but it cycles shells just fine. Has that "cornsheller" feel that a M97 Winchester has. Lots of parts inside moving and flipping and all.

With corrosive ammo,,,how did those old boys ever keep these things from rusting shut? Mine shows no signs of pits or neglect, and I only took up one adjustment notch to get it tight. You can see where Pederson had a M97 right in his lap and designed around the patents to get the same features. But that "flipper" is unique.;)


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 Post subject: Re: What's the Remington Model 10 story?
PostPosted: Sun May 15, 2011 1:58 am 
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I own a 1927 Remington Model 10 30" barrel full choke that is in at least 90% NRA condition. Gets used each hunting season in Pa. for small game it will knock the squirrels out of tall oak/hickory trees. As Researcher01 said when they work you are OK but if they ever get out out of time you have problems. My gunsmith told me not to bring it to him if I had problems he said he had enough gray hairs.

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 Post subject: Re: What's the Remington Model 10 story?
PostPosted: Sun May 15, 2011 2:04 am 
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More information on the Remington Model 10.

http://www.remington.com/products/archi ... el-10.aspx


A500R

My Remington Model 10 S/N U224411 is a take down model the bluing on the barrel,receiver & magazine tube is all original as is the finish on the stock & corncob forearm. It came from a farm in OH. the owner told me his dad bought it new in 1928 & it sat in the bedroom closet for years used very little I bought it from the son who said he no longer wanted to use it. Paid $230:00 for it & worth every penny IMO. I have inverted the gun a cycled the action interesting to watch the timing & function of the internal parts.

The fitting and timing of the little machined steel flipper on a Model 10 is incredible to watch. But, like the cocking levers on the front of the action of an LC Smith, that little flipper does work, although it doesn't look like it ever could. :wink:

Read more: viewtopic.php?f=55&t=257661#ixzz1MajqmHr1
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Last edited by A500R on Tue May 17, 2011 2:33 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: What's the Remington Model 10 story?
PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2011 9:09 am 
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I compared my 1920 Remington Model 10 last night with a 1927 Winchester Model 12 I own. The Remington was every bit as well made and as well finished as the Winchester. But the Model 12 was so much slicker, so much better designed,,,I wonder how Remington managed to sell any Model 10s at all in direct competition with the Model 12. The Remington must have been a little cheaper, and even then folks loved a certain brand.

Then I compared the Model 10 to an 870. The more I mess with old guns, the more I appreciate the design of an 870. The 870 has a lock up on the barrel extension. Any barrel ever made for any of the millions and millions of 870's will fit the receiver of any other. They aren't going to ever get loose or shaky. The bolt of an 870 just pops out the front to clean. The trigger group falls out when you punch out two pins. Yes, the trigger group is a collection of mousetrap looking punched out parts, and the shell lifter is punched out of sheet metal,,,,,but the damn thing works and works and keeps on working,,,and if it ever didn't work you could replace it yourself at home. All in all, an 870 is a very efficient design over 60 years after the first one was made.

But the absolute epitome of elegance of pump gun design has to be the Model 37 Ithaca, which I understand is basically a revised Remington Model 17. You must remove the stock to take a Model 37 apart, but once you do that, I can't imagine how to design a pump shotgun with fewer or stronger parts,,,,although those parts all have to be machined. In a perfect world, you'd have the barrel extension lock up of the 870 with action of a Model 37 Ithaca.

I suppose the inertia action of the Benelli is an even more elegant way to have a shotgun repeat. A gas auto Super X One is another wonderfully simple piece of work.

But if you like complicated, the Remington Model 10 is way up on the list. It's a testament to the skill of the Ilion workers that a Model 10 will function at all. The fitting and timing of the little machined steel flipper on a Model 10 is incredible to watch. But, like the cocking levers on the front of the action of an LC Smith, that little flipper does work, although it doesn't look like it ever could. :wink:


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 Post subject: Re: What's the Remington Model 10 story?
PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2011 8:00 pm 
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Many years ago, a good friend bought a well used Model 10T Trap gun off the rack. It had a 30" solid ribbed full choked barrel and a straight English grip with fine checkering. It was deadly on clays. When my friend discovered that replacement parts were made of unobtainium, he decided to trade it. IMO, it pointed and handled as well as any M97 or M12 that I've owned. The lines were sleek compared to the later Model 17. I don't know how they were priced against the M12 when new but, I can see why folks bought them.

DF


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 Post subject: Re: What's the Remington Model 10 story?
PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2011 1:31 am 
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Here are some prices from the 1926 Edw. K. Tryon catalogue --

Remington

Model 10A -- "Standard" Grade ------- $50.90
Model 10B -- "Special" Grade ---------- $85.00
Model 10S -- "Trap Special" Grade ----- $62.50
Model 10T -- "Target" Grade ---------- $150.00 vent rib

Model 11A -- "Standard" Grade -------- $61.50

Winchester

Model 12 -- Standard Grade --------- $54.25
Model 12 -- Tournament Grade ------ $82.25 solid rib
Model 12 -- Trap Grade -------------- $101.00 solid rib
Model 12 -- Tournament Grade ------ $154.25 vent rib
Model 12 -- Trap Grade -------------- $164.00 vent rib
Model 12 -- Tournament Grade ------ $165.00 vent rib and extension slide handle
Model 12 -- Trap Grade -------------- $181.25 vent rib and extension slide handle

Model 11 -- Standard Grade --------- $77.50

From 1910 to 1921, Remington Arms Co./Remington Arms - Union Metallic Cartridge Co./ Remington Arms Co., Inc. only offered 12-gauge shotguns chambered for 2 3/4 inch shells, the Remington Repeating Shotgun/Model 10 pump and the Remington Autoloading Gun/Model 11 autoloader. In 1921, Remington Arms Co., Inc. introduced their first 20-gauge pump, the Remington Model 17. Remington Arms Co., Inc. manufactured approximately 73,000 Model 17 20-gauge for 2 3/4 inch shells pump shotguns from 1921 to 1933. While production stopped in 1933, they were actually cleaning up and selling guns out of inventory until 1941. The gun was based on a John M. Browning Patent No. 1,143,170 granted June 15, 1915. However, Remington was gearing up for WW-I at that time and it would be six more years before the gun came out. Remington's designer John D. Pedersen made design refinements in 1919 (applications filed Sept. 15, 1919, Patent No. 1,429,621 granted Sept. 19, 1922 and Patent No. 1,487,799 granted Mar. 25, 1924) and G.H. Garrison made further improvements. It was the patents on these improvements that forced Ithaca to wait until 1937 to bring out their copy of this gun, though Ithaca had actually built some guns by 1932. Actually Pedersen has so many patent applications filed in that 1919 time frame it is hard to tell which really apply! The Model 17 was only offered with plain or solid rib barrels. It was never offered with a vent rib. Prices for Model 17s were the same as Model 10s in the 1926 Edw. K. Tryon catalogue.


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 Post subject: Re: What's the Remington Model 10 story?
PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2011 10:15 pm 
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I measured the chamber on my Model 10, and it's just shy of 2 3/4" on my gauge. Let's call it 2 5/8" with an abrupt short cone. I double checked the serial number, and it's 190xxx. The barrel just says Model 10, and has no gauge or chamber length markings. There's an "A" inside on the action, presumably the grade. I don't have any qualms about shooting 2 3/4" ammo in the thing, and the barrel looks beefy enough that any time I want to, I could give it a long forcing cone and ream the chamber out to 2 3/4" as part of the process. But I think I'll leave her alone.

I took the stock off today, and Gawdalmighty Remington went to a lot of trouble to make Model 10s! Every part inside is milled steel. The bolt goes all the way back into the tang, which is probably why the gun is said to be bad about cracking stocks. After a good cleaning, the action cycles a lot smoother, but it's not going to ever fall down with the weight of the forend like a well broken in Model 12. Nor does it need to. It pumps easy enough. The last little movement of the slide is what trips the cam to flip the shell carrier (which is wonderfully thin, machined and polished steel). I can't think of any other gun that uses a "flipper" like the Model 10.

The gun seems very well proportioned and balanced, and the barrel is actually a thirty inch modified with .715" constriction at the muzzle. It has "modern" stock dimensions. I looked on Numrich Arms and there are still quite a few parts available, but I noticed that the "flipper" was sold out. :wink:


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 Post subject: Re: What's the Remington Model 10 story?
PostPosted: Sat May 21, 2011 9:59 am 
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I couldn't stand the looks of that short, rough forcing cone. Besides, someday my kids may fall heir to all these old pawn shop specials and shoot steel shot in them because the do gooders have outlawed lead shot, and a long forcing cone would be a little dab of prevention against battering the cone. And the truth is that I just can't leave a good gun alone for very long.

Now my Model 10 has a brilliant, polished long forcing cone and I kept on reaming until my gauge just kissed the 2 3/4" mark. It could be that Remington called those chambers 2 3/4" and there was a taper right at the very end. Now it's 2 3/4" for certain. And I haven't even shot my new side flipper action Remington shotgun yet. :wink:

That hard rubber butt plate is a little worn. I see where Galazan is selling reproduction Jotsam and Hawkins and Noshock red rubber recoil pads. I wonder if any of those pads were a factory option back in 1920? There isn't any collector interest to these old smokepoles anyway, and besides that I've already given it a long forcing cone. Couldn't hurt anything to put on a period recoil pad, I wouldn't think. And there's a little varnish missing from the grip area. That needs touched up with some Fornby's, too. :wink:


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 Post subject: Re: What's the Remington Model 10 story?
PostPosted: Sat May 21, 2011 10:32 am 
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Congrats!! {hs#

Not it the same league, but I've been looking for a mid fifties Wingmaster and on my way into the doctor last Wed., stopped at a favorite pawn shop. I thought I recognized that slender no nonsense profile and corncob forend under all that yucky camo paint - yep, ended up with a nice 1957 model that seems to be a 98 mechanically and a 90 cosmetically (a few bluing losses). Of course, since I had to use stripper to get the paint off it's going to mean the furniture is refinished, but some tung oil probably won't look all that bad.

I know, not near the cool factor of a Model 31, but it replaces the one that I bought (used) when I was sixteen and lost in hurricane Ike. A virtual twin. Before they clunked them all up with ribs and spar varnish and pressed in checkering they were the bee's knees imo.

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 Post subject: Re: What's the Remington Model 10 story?
PostPosted: Sun May 22, 2011 12:41 am 
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Did you know for the first five years or so of Wingmaster production the barrels were serial numbered to the actions? And I have one from about 1955 that has the coolest solid steel magazine plug, designed to add weight to the gun. Also, the very early Wingmasters seem to have a different bluing than the later hard shiny gloss. 870's were designed to do battle in the market on equal terms with Winchester Model 12's and Ithaca 37's, and they did it so well they killed the Model 12 and crippled the Model 37.

Although it's heresy, I've always agreed with the gun writers of the period and considered the early Wingmaster 870's actually an improvement over the Model 31. Yes, an 870 has stamped out parts inside, but they work forever and the design is top notch. :wink:


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 Post subject: Re: What's the Remington Model 10 story?
PostPosted: Sun May 22, 2011 1:00 pm 
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I'm going way out on a limb, here, and admit up front that I may be wrong about this.. but I have seen it any number of times, and almost never in reverse:

Either by design or accident, Remington somehow found a combination of dimension, weight distribution, contour, etc. with the 870 or the 1100 that improves the shooting of the average american male. I love my old model 12s, my
a-5, my 101, etc. but when it comes down to breaking clay targets or putting birds on the ground i'll almost always do slightly better with an old wingmaster or 1100.

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 Post subject: Re: What's the Remington Model 10 story?
PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2011 9:44 pm 
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I'll second that,,,and Remington had that mojo as far back as 1908 when they came out with the Model 10. I finally got to shoot mine today. It has that same feel as an early plain barrel 870. These guns don't need recoil pads or vent ribs. We had new skeet throwers installed this afternoon, and after the crowd left I stayed behind and pulled 50 just to see how it shot. I kept backing away from the 27 yard line,,,at different stations,,,clear back fifteen steps. I couldn't hardly miss one. Even when I shot low birds at fifty some yards. Geezus these were good handling guns!

Then I shot a bunch of patterns on the plate. This is an outrageously good shooting gun. Dead center patterns, round as a silver dollar, evenly spaced pellets, with a visable core that would stay togather out as far as anyone could reliably hit a target. If my forcing cone job did that,,,I'll never know,,,but it's as perfect as just a handful of shotguns I own (all of which are fixed chokes,,,and most of them about .015 constriction.)

You don't have to pay fancy money for a top notch, none finer target shotgun. Any 870, any 1100, or an SX1 or a B2000 are just as good as they get. And you want it choked a light modified. 93 years ago Remington was making Model 10's that equal anything made today. And that $287 870 Express at Wall Mart is just as good. Better,,,if you buy a SuperCell pad to go on it.;)


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 Post subject: Re: What's the Remington Model 10 story?
PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2011 12:52 am 
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SuperXOne!! I & my 1927 Remington Model 10 agree with that statement 100%.

93 years ago Remington was making Model 10's that equal anything made today.

Read more: viewtopic.php?f=55&t=257661#ixzz1NFKEL29J


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 Post subject: Re: What's the Remington Model 10 story?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 6:00 am 
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SuperXOne wrote:
QUOTE #1-870's were designed to do battle in the market on equal terms with Winchester Model 12's and Ithaca 37's, and they did it so well they killed the Model 12 and crippled the Model 37.

QUOTE #2-Although it's heresy, I've always agreed with the gun writers of the period and considered the early Wingmaster 870's actually an improvement over the Model 31. Yes, an 870 has stamped out parts inside, but they work forever and the design is top notch. :wink:
I'm sorry for grave digging this old post out but I have to respond to this hog wash.

As for quote #1, The model 870 wasn't designed to do battle in the market on "EQUAL" terms with the Winchester model 12 and the Ithaca model 37. The model 870's were built using stamped parts so it could be built cheaper and quicker, no where near better than the Winchester model 12 or Ithaca model 37. There is nothing "EQUAL" about a cheaper, stamped out made model 870 and a quality hand made Winchester model 12 or Ithaca model 37.

As for quote #2 Ha! Ha! Ha!....I don't know what kind of meds. your on or what kind you need to be on but the model 870 was never built as an improvement over the model 31. Unless you are talking about the production times & costs between them. That is the ONLY improvement the model 870 had over the model 31. JFYI, gun writers of the period wrote whatever their sponsors wanted them to write, or there would be no more funds directed to whatever magazine that the said writer of the period was working for. In short it was "write favorably about our current model or forget about any money from our sponsorship coming anywhere near you". I've read more barnyard bio mass from "writers of the period" years ago that has since been debunked or proved out right wrong or lies that I stopped taking subscriptions to their fantasy world written magazines. You could get more truth out of reading the Cat in the hat children's book. If you honestly think the model 870 was truly a quality improvement over the model 31, you either haven't ever hunted with and shot a model 31, or someone gave you some really bad information about the model 31, or you really know absolutely nothing about the models you made these statements about.

I'm not trying to be anal, I'm just being honest. And honesty is the best policy.


Last edited by classicshotgunner on Fri Sep 09, 2011 10:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: What's the Remington Model 10 story?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 10:13 am 
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Ouch! I think SuperXone knows what he's talking about I love the older hand fitted guns but they won't outlast an 870. The fact that an 870 can come off the production line go together and just shoot like they do could be viewed as better.


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 Post subject: Re: What's the Remington Model 10 story?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 12:44 pm 
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chairman wrote:
Ouch! I think SuperXone knows what he's talking about I love the older hand fitted guns but they won't outlast an 870. The fact that an 870 can come off the production line go together and just shoot like they do could be viewed as better.

From the way he wrote his statements, it doesn't sound like he knows what he's talking about. I don't mean this in a smart mouthed way or to be offensive but, how do you get that the older hand fitted shotguns won't out last a model 870? I have a safe and a gun cabinet full of old hand fitted shotguns, model 12's, model 31's, model 37's, model 10's, A5's, etc. and they haven't required a single part to keep them running in the many many years I've used them. The most of them have 20 to 40+ years of age on them verses the 1950's, 60's, and 70's era model 870's Wingmasters I have. I've had to replace two carriers, 2 broken firing pins, 1 weak magazine spring, and a hammer spring on the lot of model 870's I have. I have changed 1 weak hammer spring in a model 31 in a 16 GA. in my life, and that wasn't even my shotgun. It belonged to a man that only owned the model 31 and no other shotguns and it was heavily used and abused in it's lifetime. That same 16 GA. model 31 shotgun is still in use today by the man's grandson without any other parts having been put in or on it and he uses it every spring and fall for hunting plus some summertime clay target shooting. How fast a gun comes off the assembly line doesn't make the gun better than a gun that comes off the assembly line slower. As far as shooting regular #4, #5, and #6 shot while hunting, the model 870 does shoot as good as the older hand fitted models I listed above but, get some #10 or #12 small lead pellet match rounds and pattern the model 870 with the same size barrel and listed choke as the older hand fitted models and see if it can shoot as well as them. I have shot card/turkey matches for a hobby for many years and I can tell you now that it won't shoot with the older hand fitted models. You have to have a shotgun with a good barrel to hold tight patters out to 40 yards with those smaller sized #10 or #12 lead pellet rounds and the largest part of the old hand fitted models do have such barrels. They were built as a standard back when those older hand fitted models were being made, with todays fast production made shotguns you would have to have a barrel custom ordered and made at the factory to get those same barrel pattern results. I know a lot depends on opinions, and everyone has one. But, just taking my life time experiences of the mentioned shotguns shows for the record that the hand fitted shotguns will last as long if not longer than a model 870. I just don't think the statement that the older hand fitted shotguns won't last as long as a model 870 Wingmaster holds water.


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 Post subject: Re: What's the Remington Model 10 story?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 3:04 pm 
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Couple points I won't get in a pissin match, I said they won't outlast an 870 that's not the same as saying they won't last as long. I own and have owned lot's of vintage guns I love them and shoot them. Dragging up an old post to rake someone over the coals is petty. I'm sure many a trapshooter could enlighten you on very high round count 870's and I couldn't care less about #10 or #12 shot.


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 Post subject: Re: What's the Remington Model 10 story?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 3:56 pm 
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chairman wrote:
Couple points I won't get in a pissin match, I said they won't outlast an 870 that's not the same as saying they won't last as long. I own and have owned lot's of vintage guns I love them and shoot them. Dragging up an old post to rake someone over the coals is petty. I'm sure many a trapshooter could enlighten you on very high round count 870's and I couldn't care less about #10 or #12 shot.

"I said they won't outlast an 870 that's not the same as saying they won't last as long".
If they last as long as an 870 then they are outlasting them given that they were made many years before the 870 was ever produced. I didn't drag up an old post to rake "someone" over the coals. I did it to rake the statements made in the post over the coals. I could care less who made the statements. I doubt very much that a trap shooter could enlighten me about very high round counts on the 870 or anything else about the 870. Did my post mislead you into thinking that I've never shot trap? I'm no cherry to the model 870 and I didn't just buy my first model 870 last week. I didn't say that they wouldn't shoot high counts of rounds. My point was that they are not an improvement over the older model 12's, 37's and definitely not the model 31. The only improvement Remington made by making the model 870 was they made them cheaper and faster, that's it. That was the whole purpose of the model 870 to begin with, production costs, to kill off the competition. The #10 and #12 pellet shot reference was simply to show a point that the 870 will not pattern them well where the older model 12's and model 31's will with the same length barrels and marked choke, not that if you would care or not about the size shot. It is irrelevant whether you care about the size shot or not, that doesn't change the fact that the model 870 can not do what the model 12's and 31's will do. Not trying to start a p!ssin match, I did say I wasn't being smart mouthed or trying to be offensive with what I wrote if you will re-read my post. I'm sorry you took it that way as it was NOT intended to be meant in that way. My apologies to you for misunderstanding my post and being offended in anyway.


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