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 Post subject: side lock, box lock? difference?>
PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 9:39 am 
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what are the pros and cons to a side lock and box lock ?

i hear the terms come up and i know it has to do with the way the guns action breaks but is there a difference ?


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 Post subject: Re: side lock, box lock? difference?>
PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 10:16 am 
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Sidelock has the firing mechanism for each barrel mounted to a plate on each side of the gun:

Image

Boxlock has the firing mechanism mounted to the frame:

Image

Triggerplate action has the firing mechanism mounted to the triggerplate:

Image

Sidelocks are often (not always) hand-detachable, with a little release lever or levers. This allows easy maintenance and cleaning of the locks, drying when the gun is wet, etc.

Boxlocks are the simplest to make, and it's much easier to make a single selective trigger with a boxlock.

The triggerplate action (aka droplock) combines the engineering advantages of the boxlock with the easy access of the sidelock. You will find this design on many competition guns, as well as on common Beretta O/Us -- but the 680 series triggerplate doesn't drop out easily like the one on a Perazzi.

Another reason to use the triggerplate action is that it allows the gunmaker to build a round frame around the triggerplate, for lines that are smooth and attractive, and a gun that feels great to carry and to mount.

Scottish gunmakers are known for this:

Image

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 Post subject: Re: side lock, box lock? difference?>
PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 11:30 am 
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The term "lock" has nothing to do with how the shotgun opens or closes. When I first started looking at SXS shotguns I was confused the same way. If you think back to the old flintlock rifles, the term lock applies to the firing mechanism. This terminology came about because the same guy was building locks for your house as built locks for your gun. The old phrase "lock, stock and barrel" basically covers the major parts of a gun in those days.
A sidelock has all the firing mechanism attached externally to the gun on the sides.
A boxlock has all the firing mechanism contained inside the receiver or "box".
Both the sidelock and boxlock have the same opening and closing mechanisms.

This explanation is over simplified to get the general idea across but I'm sure someone will come on here to point out the exceptions to the gross generalities stated here.

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Last edited by Riflemeister on Tue Jun 07, 2011 11:59 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: side lock, box lock? difference?>
PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 11:43 am 
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Oh yeah... Like Riflemeister writes, the sidelock design dates back WAY before anything like a modern shotgun.

Image

The reason it was called a "lock" is that the term at the time referred to a small rotating mechanical device, similar to a door lock. The lock was built as a unit, and installed on the gun, much as a lock is built as a unit, then installed in a door.

We don't use the term like that any more -- except in shotgun and muzzleloader parlance. :)

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 Post subject: Re: side lock, box lock? difference?>
PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 11:47 am 
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BarryD:

great response. Hopefully the moderator will make a sticky out of this one.

(this is the best of what Shotgun World is all about, and pretty refreshing after endless questions of "what is the best $500 over/under"; and, "what is the best shotgun under $800 to do everything all the time" !)


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 Post subject: Re: side lock, box lock? difference?>
PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 12:09 pm 
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this was exactly what i was looking for! than you Team. Now here is another question. is one perticular deisgn stronger than another?

can i have some examples of makes/ models of each style.

i want to say that
LC smith is a side lock
and Savage/ stevens is a box lock along w SKB?


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 Post subject: Re: side lock, box lock? difference?>
PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 12:29 pm 
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Stronger?

Neither. The same engineering can be used for the basic structure of the gun, meaning the pivot and lockup.

E.g. Beretta DT10 and SO5:

DT10
Image

SO5
Image

The sidelock in this case, and in any case I can think of, is the higher-priced gun.

Some SxS sidelock stocks may be a bit weaker, since there is more inletting, and therefore less wood. Full-length tangs tend to strengthen the wrists of these guns anyway -- they are slender and need to reinforcement.

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 Post subject: Re: side lock, box lock? difference?>
PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 12:55 pm 
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The boxlock is stronger than a sidelock in the the same way a Seiko keeps better time than a Rolex.

The bearing surface of the stock behind a boxlock action is stronger because there is more wood butting up against the metal. Conversely, a sidelock requires more wood to be removed from the stock creating an increased potential for a cracking. The boxlock lends itself more to mass-production than a sidelock which requires more handfitting. Aesthetically, at least IMO, the sidelock just looks better and flows with the lines of the gun. Also, there is more metal surface for engraving. In addition to their looks, sidelocks have the advantage of easy removal and fairly simple replacement of hammers, springs, etc. Also better sidelocks have intercepting sears which prevent firing if the primary sear is jarred loose by something other than the pull of the trigger. Back to aesthetics, boxlock makers have softened their straight-backed look by using side panels on the stock, fake sideplates, and scalloped frames. Some have even added an intercepting sear.

Therefore, the world's best guns- the ones noted for exceptional refinement, ornamentation and, of course, cost- are almost always sidelocks.

BTW, I'm not knocking boxlocks at all. I have 4 sxs's all of which boxlocks. Also, the LC Smith is a sidelock without the intercepting sears.


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 Post subject: Re: side lock, box lock? difference?>
PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 1:14 pm 
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Sidelock defines where the lock is attached. A sidelock is attached to a plate and functions from the "SIDE." While most common sidelocks have their plates mounted externaly to the wood, hence the detachable sidelock action Plates and look of the Holland and Holland or So series Berettas. However, FAMARS makes an "Internal SIDELOCK" gun that function like a detachable trigger type boxlock, except the LOCK is attached to a CENTRAL PLATE not the top or bottom of the action plate, hence they are internal sidelocks without the obvious sideplated action!


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 Post subject: Re: side lock, box lock? difference?>
PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 1:16 pm 
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barry: great pics/great explanation....but a few details off. Wesley Richards makes true drop-locks and each is separate --closer to a sidelock than a triggerplate action(ie two separate locks , one for each barrel).

And a trigger plate action can drop out like a Perazzi or be fixed in place like some of the Scottish guns .Your pic is the std for a Scottish "round action" (which is different from a round body --or "rounded body") though most all Scottish triggerplate actions also are contained in a round body design.

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 Post subject: Re: side lock, box lock? difference?>
PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 8:46 pm 
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Great replies and explanations to this one, especially the origins of the terms i.e. "lock". Enjoy the history involved with shotguns/firearms. Thanks!

+1 on the sticky.
VTHokiesDuckHunter wrote:
BarryD:

(this is the best of what Shotgun World is all about, and pretty refreshing after endless questions of "what is the best $500 over/under"; and, "what is the best shotgun under $800 to do everything all the time" !)

Amen to that.


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 Post subject: Re: side lock, box lock? difference?>
PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 10:06 am 
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Further correction per sera's post. I messed up some terminology, and should have included at least one more picture!

A drop lock is not a triggerplate lock; it's more like an internal sidelock, for want of a better description, but it's a whole different design from any of the above. Here's a Westley Richards:

Image

Some Perazzis have drop-in trigger groups -- different from a drop lock. Ditto for the DT-10, Kolars, etc. Other Perazzis, the 680 series, etc. have more permanently affixed actions, and the newest Beretta action design, the SV, is somewhere in between, where at least in some versions, the triggerplate can be removed easily but only after the stock is removed. The bottom line is that not every gun without sidelocks is necessarily a standard boxlock design.

This is a Perazzi MX8 trigger group:
Image

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 Post subject: Re: side lock, box lock? difference?>
PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 10:18 am 
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Wow. And thanks.

Now I need to add a Scottish gun to the collection. A 2 trigger , triggerplate, round body.

I have a round body (though it's a sidelock) , a drop-out trigger , several box locks and 2 sidelocks.....

or

maybe a good choice would be a Wesley Richards drop lock. Have you seen any of their double rifles , w/ the highly jewelled locks?

To die for.

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 Post subject: Re: side lock, box lock? difference?>
PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 10:23 am 
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W-R takes out full-page ads in Shooting Sportsman with those locks depicted in living color. Then there are all the other companies...

I'm glad I have a handle on my spending, or I'd be tempted to do stupid things, subscribing to that !@#$ magazine.

OTOH I got a DT 28" Elite Gold that helped scratch my round triggerplate action itch for a tiny fraction of a real Scottish gun, thanks to advice on this site. Damn nice gun for the price I paid, and wouldn't be at all bad for a fair amount more. And I don't mind taking it outside...

This is Riflemeister's. He captured the contours of the action better than I did in a couple snapshots I took of mine:

Image

viewtopic.php?f=137&t=248661&start=0

They did some nice CCH on those. This is the one I got:

Image

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 Post subject: Re: side lock, box lock? difference?>
PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 3:19 pm 
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One more addendum...

It seems the Brits refer to guns as "drop locks" and "fixed locks" generally, depending on whether the lock or trigger group drops out without tools. In the UK, the term "drop-lock" can refer to a Perazzi MX8 or similar design. Go figure. :)

http://www.thefield.co.uk/features/1539 ... .html#link

sera, the linked article would be a good way for you to create a checklist for your collection "must-haves". :mrgreen:

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I suspect that the 'T' in P.T. Barnum stands for Tactical.


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 Post subject: Re: side lock, box lock? difference?>
PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 3:58 pm 
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That's a sweet little SxS. I like the scalloped action.

I have been very lucky to own as many nice guns as I have....and only last year added a sidelock O/U to the stable at a much reduced price ( a 2005 gun that I lucked upon & that was perfect and heavily discounted). This year I bought my 1st ever .410....what a cool little gun. :D

The Shooting Sportsman has been the dealer/pusher of all these fine intoxicants and between the hunting trips and guns well.....I'd rather not add it all up . It would likely make me weep. :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: side lock, box lock? difference?>
PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 4:14 pm 
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Shooting Sportsman even helped push my newest dog, bred by the manager of this operation, out of Pointers they use for horseback hunting: http://www.shootingsportsman.com/node/4913

She just took a Prize 2 in NAVHDA Natural Ability (due in part to my patience as a swimming teacher -- English Pointers are good swimmers, but apparently don't know it until they're shown that it's all right to go into deep water).

The only point she lost was due to her running so big that she overshot birds. This isn't exactly surprising, given her origins... :mrgreen:

A little more field experience to give her better discernment and she'll be one hell of a chukar dog!

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I suspect that the 'T' in P.T. Barnum stands for Tactical.


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 Post subject: Re: side lock, box lock? difference?>
PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 4:51 pm 
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South Louisiana coon a$$es are duck hunter and thus have black labs. Mine is 13 this year and now retired from chasing teal and greenheads.

I know you're proud of your dog. There's nothing finer than hunting behind a 4-legged member of the family.

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 Post subject: Re: side lock, box lock? difference?>
PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 5:01 pm 
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True enough.

Someday, I'll have the patience to hunt ducks with some semblance of seriousness... :)

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I suspect that the 'T' in P.T. Barnum stands for Tactical.


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 Post subject: Re: side lock, box lock? difference?>
PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 12:43 am 
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Sidelock plates do lend them selves to some awesome ornate engraving in the hands of a master engraver, sure add to the cost for a pair of fine sidelock shotguns, Purdey style.
Wish l still owned my matched pair of Westly Richards, once owned a lovely Holland, female issues cost me those guns !! never again.

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