CalendarCalendar   Photos  * FAQ
It is currently Fri Sep 19, 2014 2:46 am

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]





Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 26 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Superposed engraving patterns
PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 11:50 pm 
Utility Grade

Joined: Tue Mar 15, 2011 11:02 pm
Posts: 18
Location: Victoria, Australia
Is there any decent online source of Superposed photos showing the different engraving patterns, in particular the Europoean marketed guns?
I understand that the Schwing book will give me the info I need, but I cannot find a version locally to view, and the prices listed online are crazy (one source lists it at US$1250 +postage). I didn't pay that much for either of my supers.

I am interested in the C2 pattern (or patterns). I have seen two different versions advertised as C2 for sale.

Planner


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Superposed engraving patterns
PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 7:32 am 
*Proud to be a*
*Proud to be a*
User avatar

Joined: Sat Sep 04, 2010 11:08 pm
Posts: 615
Here are a Few.

http://www.browning.com/products/catalo ... eenres.pdf


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Superposed engraving patterns
PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 6:59 pm 
Utility Grade

Joined: Tue Mar 15, 2011 11:02 pm
Posts: 18
Location: Victoria, Australia
Thanks Rob

I have a copy of the catologue, but am more interested in the older patterns.
I have found for sale a C2 (I'm told) 1954 numbered, Funken signed both sides. But the engraving does not match what is normally sold here as a C2.
All (most anyway) C2's sold in Australia have the distinctive crescent scroll engraving forward of the game scene (same shape as the A1 scroll). This gun has the game scene in an oval similar the the US pointer. Trying to work out what is being offered for sale, and if I should be selling off one of the kids to buy it :D
Will try and get some photos this week.

Planner


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Superposed engraving patterns
PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2011 7:54 am 
Crown Grade

Joined: Mon Aug 07, 2006 9:56 am
Posts: 6668
Location: Maryland
As long as you're selling off the kids, go out and buy the Schwing book.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Superposed engraving patterns
PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 8:56 am 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Tue Dec 29, 2009 5:46 pm
Posts: 130
Hey planner, I was able to pick up the Schwing book from the library. If you tell me what you're looking for, I can try to scan some photos and email them to you.

Is the C2 a European designation? If so, what would it have have been considered here in the US?

Chris


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Superposed engraving patterns
PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 9:42 pm 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2009 7:51 pm
Posts: 111
Location: Australia
They changed the C2 in the early days , orig they had a grooved receiver, then they used a standard rec and changed the pattern a bit .The A B C etc patterns are the same everywhere. they have altered patterns along the way, usually a time cost thing. the B2 also underwent slight changes. mid late 80's they dummped the patterns and left the B2G and have the current patterns offered today.all patterns were dropped in the late 70's and they went to the "P" series guns/patterns, these were not much chop. few years later they returned to the old stuff and then the drop in the 80's. Also you could always pay the cash and have your own custom pattern done,these guns are out there and im sure the odd one has been called a standard pettern by the un knowing.
paul

_________________
"ONE'S NEVER ENOUGH"


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Superposed engraving patterns
PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2011 2:45 pm 
Limited Edition

Joined: Thu Oct 02, 2008 6:13 pm
Posts: 415
From the Schwing book, Chapter 2, under "Superposed Engraving of the 1950s;"

Fabrique Nationale had its own Superposed engraving patterns. Also designed by Felix Funken, these patterns reflect European taste. The Al was the lowest grade and featured a blued finish with acanthus leaves cut into the breech of the barrel and top of the frame. Rosette engraving adorned the hinge pin while a stamped border defined the perimeter of the frame with a graceful curved band through the center. The A2 featured the same sparse engraving pattern but with a case colored finish. These Fabrique Nationale A Grades were referred to by the factory as Standard models. Next in ornamentation and price came the Standard Engraved models. The Bl was engraved with a light English style flower scroll on a gray finish; the B2 also had a gray finish but featured a game scene on a background of light English style scroll. In many ways the B2 closely resembled the American Grade III.

The next group of engraved FN Superposed were designated DeLuxe models. These guns featured certain hand polished action parts and the buttstock was furnished with carved dopper or teardrop points. The Cl featured a case colored finish and a light English style flower engraving. The C2 had a case colored finish and a game scene on a background of light English style scroll. The C3 had a light English style lace engraving on a case colored finish.

The third group of FN engraved Superposed were labeled Super DeLuxe models. The bluing was extra lustrous and all parts of the action were hand polished. The selected dark walnut stock had a special hand polished finish, and the forearm was a three-piece affair. Both buttstock and forearm had diamond point checkering and the buttstock had carved dopper points. The Dl had a finely festooned border engraving with screws and hinge pin finely engraved on a deeply blued frame. This was a rather plain grade, but it did carry a three-piece forearm and special wood. The D2 had a case colored finish with very light English style flower engraving. The D3 had a gray finished frame with very fine English style lace engraving. The D4 was a handsome grade with a gray finished frame and a lightly cut hunting scene on a background of very fine English style engraving. The D5 was the most prestigious catalogued grade offered by FN during the 1950s. It featured a gray finish on the frame with very fine, well executed Louis XVI style engraving.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Superposed engraving patterns
PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2011 3:04 pm 
Limited Edition

Joined: Thu Oct 02, 2008 6:13 pm
Posts: 415
From the Schwing book, p. 145;

Image

See a larger version at cpg1410/albums/userpics/55646/BrowningC2_01.jpg


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Superposed engraving patterns
PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2011 6:48 pm 
Utility Grade

Joined: Tue Mar 15, 2011 11:02 pm
Posts: 18
Location: Victoria, Australia
Thanks RKA5

This was exactly the info I was looking for, your picture matches exactly the C2 pattern I am familiar with. My Brother-in-law owns a fantastic example, but refuses to part with it (he does let me shoot it when we go out together.) I am a huge fan of the game scene engraving (B2, C2 & D4), but alas own none. My "collection" consists of a A1 "working gun", used weekly for hunting, and a B1 that I have just aquired and will probably be used by my son as he outgrows his 20g.
I will get some photos of this other gun this week, and maybe someone can ID it for me.

Planner


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Superposed engraving patterns
PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2011 7:12 pm 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2009 7:51 pm
Posts: 111
Location: Australia
Just a note after looking in the Browning book, in the 60's they changed the C2 it went to a non sculptured frame and instead used a totaly straight side, basically the square edge of the receiver as in the trigger end of the standard rec this edge goes all the way to the forend, the pattern changed also.and wasnt case hardened finish they went to the silver finish. I like the earlier version.

_________________
"ONE'S NEVER ENOUGH"


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Superposed engraving patterns
PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2011 10:38 pm 
Utility Grade

Joined: Tue Mar 15, 2011 11:02 pm
Posts: 18
Location: Victoria, Australia
Got a couple of photos today (please excuse quality, they were taken on my phone).

Image

Image

Anyone able to ID what I'm looking at? On a second look the engraving and wood don't look to be of a "C" standard.
Condition is good to very good, lever still right of centre (just), but still very tight. 28in choked full & full. Serial number dates as 1954, by coincidence only 30 different from my B1 (probably shared time in the factory).

Planner

Planner


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Superposed engraving patterns
PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2011 8:30 am 
*Proud to be a*
*Proud to be a*

Joined: Wed Jun 21, 2006 9:30 am
Posts: 630
It looks like the top example is what's known as "Fighting Cocks". Felix Funken did a lot of the engraving for this pattern. Can't see the bottom one well enough to comment. GJ


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Superposed engraving patterns
PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2011 12:59 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Mon Aug 07, 2006 9:56 am
Posts: 6668
Location: Maryland
Looks like an American regular catalog version Grade lll, Fighting Cocks, circa 1951 to 1958. I have one from 1951 to compare, but it is not available right now. I would get your gun provenanced at Browning in the US. I would guess your gun may have been shipped from Browning USA.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Superposed engraving patterns
PostPosted: Sat Jun 18, 2011 1:38 am 
Limited Edition

Joined: Thu Oct 02, 2008 6:13 pm
Posts: 415
Definitely not a C2, and clearly (to me at least) not an authentic Funken gun. It’s also definitely not an American Grade III which is often called the “fighting cocks” version (see photo below).

Your photos most resemble the B2 pattern, illustrated in the Schwing book with some good (signed) and not-so-good (unsigned) examples. The unsigned example was listed as probably by a journeyman engraver. It was pretty plain, though not as bad as the one you have pictured.

In my estimation this gun seems to be either a bad copy with forged signature done “in the style” of the B2, or an original journeyman engraved B2 with forged signature added.

In either case, the gun isn’t worth much.

American Grade III (the so-called "fighting cocks" version) by Funken;
Image

See a larger version at cpg1410/albums/userpics/55646/BrowningFightingCockis.jpg


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Superposed engraving patterns
PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2011 6:13 pm 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2009 7:51 pm
Posts: 111
Location: Australia
HI I agree with RKA5, They changed the B2 pattern and this is the early version. with the silver trigger and chokes this should be a field gun. being a European model browning does not keep any info on these serials. As European models are "FN Brownings" as far as Browning US is concerned they are not conected,these guns left the factory under FN's control/sales not Browning,they just share the name.
I tried with my B1 also,

_________________
"ONE'S NEVER ENOUGH"


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Superposed engraving patterns
PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2011 9:38 pm 
Utility Grade

Joined: Tue Mar 15, 2011 11:02 pm
Posts: 18
Location: Victoria, Australia
Thanks all for the valuable info.

RKA5, the engraving is better than the photos suggest. My phone doesn't like taking a photo in a darkened room, and a lot of the shading was lost. The photos also suggest the engraving is much "shallower" than in reality.

Paul, I have since found other photos online matching it as an older B2. You are also correct about it being a field gun, stock dimensions confirm this. I much prefer the later B2 pattern.

I don't own this gun, but it is being offered for sale. I can't afford it at present, but in 6 months time I might check again. There is room for negotiation in the offered price, and given time that room may expand. Being identified as a B2 rather than a C2, the urgency to buy isn't as great.

Planner


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Superposed engraving patterns
PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2011 10:08 pm 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2009 7:51 pm
Posts: 111
Location: Australia
Planner, there is some good B25's around for sale at the moment and i want them all . And ive come across some for sale that are through word of mouth that are fine examples.
there is a good late model B2G on usedguns.com for a good price. check with ian mcgeoch too he knows everyone with one and they usually sell through him. there is a late model skeet B1 close by factory case little work for good price.
I keep hearing horror stories through our clay club of people selling their higher model B25's for rediculously cheap prices coz they dont realize what they are worth now. i bloody never get to them in time.

_________________
"ONE'S NEVER ENOUGH"


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Superposed engraving patterns
PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2011 11:12 pm 
Utility Grade

Joined: Tue Mar 15, 2011 11:02 pm
Posts: 18
Location: Victoria, Australia
Tried to ring Ian last Friday, machine says he's not answering the phone until next Monday (to clear some backlogged work). Have seen the ones on usedguns (look at the site most days). I to hear of the cheap supers being sold (often by family as part of estate), but always a week too late :(

ATO has put a stop to any significant purchases for a while, so I might strip and refinish the B1 for my 13yr old son (he currently uses a cheap 20g). The stock has been butchered by someone already, by adding a comb to get to trap dimensions. One interesting note on the B1, neither the stock or forearm are numbered to the action, but all within 2 years production (40000-46000). The forarm is also the skinniest I have seen on a browning. Is this a factory proflie, or has someone taken to it with a rasp?

Image

A little too small for my likes, but great for a junior to use


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Superposed engraving patterns
PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2011 11:29 pm 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2009 7:51 pm
Posts: 111
Location: Australia
Yea , looks like its been butchered, early guns had field size forends ,In the 60's i think they went to the defined skeet and trap beavertail. A friend has a 1951 ish B1 trap and the forend is basicaly a field spec quite slim. , $800 with case from a dealer/shop and in good shape metal work is fine. the shop keeper gave it away.

_________________
"ONE'S NEVER ENOUGH"


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Superposed engraving patterns
PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2011 12:04 am 
Utility Grade

Joined: Tue Mar 15, 2011 11:02 pm
Posts: 18
Location: Victoria, Australia
paulaustralia wrote:
early guns had field size forends

My A1 has the field style forend, but this one, forward of the crossbolt and takedown latch narrows to near nothing.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 26 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Registered users: Bing [Bot], Bubzola, FreeShot, GoldGuy, Google [Bot], Google Adsense [Bot], High Rib 52, huhas, jpwheels, millsusaf, SamNavy, skeetfreak, stockranger, waverider


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group     -  DMCA Notice