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 Post subject: 12 or 20 gauge, Savage bolt slug gun?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2011 6:49 am 
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Joined: Sat Jul 15, 2006 8:40 am
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Going to buy a Savage 220 or a 212. Should I buy the 20 or the 12 gauge version?


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 Post subject: Re: 12 or 20 gauge, Savage bolt slug gun?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2011 7:10 am 
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Buy the 12 ga. If the recoil in uncomfortable, use the light loads. If available, get one that has a 3 or 3 1/2 inch chamber, just in case you want to hunt larger game, like turkey or geese.


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 Post subject: Re: 12 or 20 gauge, Savage bolt slug gun?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2011 8:29 am 
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DWT- the Savage 220/212 is a bolt action, fully rifled barrel slug gun. Not designed for geese or turkey. 3" chamber only.


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 Post subject: Re: 12 or 20 gauge, Savage bolt slug gun?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2011 3:09 pm 
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Location: Lopatcong Twp., New Jersey
Go with the 220f (20ga.), when it comes down to deer size game the 20ga. can and will out perform the 12ga. without the recoil I love my 220f, I have a Leupold VX-II 3-9x40 with medium Dednutz one piece scope mounts, using Remington Accu-Tip 3" shells, I'm getting 5 shot groups 4" above center measuring 3/4" at 100 yards


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 Post subject: Re: 12 or 20 gauge, Savage bolt slug gun?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2011 9:09 pm 
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I recently did a ton of research on the 12 vs 20 debate. From everything that I can find, the 12 will outperform the 20 hands down in every equally matched load. By that, I mean same brand, same length load. The 12 will almost always have more energy, a larger diameter bullet, and less drop at all ranges. The 20 will always have less recoil. That being said, the 20 in its most powerful loads, is plenty powerful enough for deer at any distance that you can accurately and consistently shoot it. Anyone who can say they believe the 20 outperforms the 12, simply is ignoring the advertised ballistics given by the manufacturers. I am going with the twenty. It is enough knockdown power to do the job, without the excessive reoil of the 12. The same gun in 20 is usually substantially lighter than it's 12 counterpart. If gun weight, and recoil are not an issue, the 12 will outperform a 20.


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 Post subject: Re: 12 or 20 gauge, Savage bolt slug gun?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 16, 2011 9:18 am 
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Buttonbuckslayer! wrote:
I recently did a ton of research on the 12 vs 20 debate. From everything that I can find, the 12 will outperform the 20 hands down in every equally matched load. By that, I mean same brand, same length load. The 12 will almost always have more energy, a larger diameter bullet, and less drop at all ranges. The 20 will always have less recoil. That being said, the 20 in its most powerful loads, is plenty powerful enough for deer at any distance that you can accurately and consistently shoot it. Anyone who can say they believe the 20 outperforms the 12, simply is ignoring the advertised ballistics given by the manufacturers. I am going with the twenty. It is enough knockdown power to do the job, without the excessive reoil of the 12. The same gun in 20 is usually substantially lighter than it's 12 counterpart. If gun weight, and recoil are not an issue, the 12 will outperform a 20.

Well said! i used a 20 ga. for the first time this past fall and cleanly killed two adult does at 80 something yards and 60 something yards. clean pass throughs. Rem. coppersolids. I've done it with a 12 ga too, but the 2o carried alot easier.


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 Post subject: Re: 12 or 20 gauge, Savage bolt slug gun?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2011 9:21 am 
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It's a no brainer.... get the 20. More than enough gun for whitetail. I've shot around 20 deer with mine in the last three years from 10 yards to 157 yards with no problems.


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 Post subject: Re: 12 or 20 gauge, Savage bolt slug gun?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 23, 2011 9:29 am 
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lwh723 wrote:
It's a no brainer.... get the 20. More than enough gun for whitetail.


Ditto!

JC


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 Post subject: Re: 12 or 20 gauge, Savage bolt slug gun?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2011 3:24 am 
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Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2011 5:32 pm
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I am relatively new to slug gun shooting, but have been shooting rifles my whole life. I recently picked the Savage 212 after hunting in Ohio with family, after loosing a doe with my extremly heavy and finicky Knight .45 cal super disc. I vowed to go back with what I viewed as the proper tool for the job. No stand hunting where we hunted, they drove small wooded areas and strategically placed standers, much diferent from the south west Va hunting I was accustomed to. Having a 870 I thought about a new rifled barrel, but found the price almost as much as a new gun, and I didnt really appreciate the feel of the pump vs the Remington 700's i was accustomed too. Savage the came out with the 212 replacing the 210, and it seemed the perfect fit. I killed a doe the first outing at a scant 50 yards, not hardly reaching the guns potential. My buddies do quite a bit of long range shooting with souped up 338's and 50 cals as well as a couple 408 chey techs to keep it interesting, while having my personal 338 norma built, I took along the Savage just for some trigger time. At the time the gun came with a two piece base from savage, that turned out to be way too long for the new Nikon slug hunter scope purchased for the gun, so on goes the old Tasco Proghorn. Not intending to shoot long range with a slug gun, but just for giggles, me and my buddy let fly at the 680 yard target, never hitting it but coming very close, 6"s several times I then knew it could be done. I went back to the drawing board and ordered a one peice picatinney from EGW, so that i could easliy mount any scope I wanted, which ended up being my Horus Vision Hawk, another day at the Range brought back to back hits on a 18"x18" steel target, at 633 yards. Needless to say I love my Savage.


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 Post subject: Re: 12 or 20 gauge, Savage bolt slug gun?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2011 3:39 am 
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I know people will look at this blog and think im a certified lier, however let them think what they will, I have witnesses. The gun a Savage 212 with a Horus Vision Hawk, mounted with Leuopold mark 4 rings, on the afore mentioned EGW picatinney. Winchester 3" Supreme elites at 2100, with a three hundred yard zero, and an additional 13 mils of elevation. My dope was roughly calculated using JBM balistics calculations and of course practical adjustments while shooting. There is no hard core balistics calcs for slugs that I know of. I have since thrown dirt on an 8" circle at 750 yards multiple times with no hits, ran out of scope and the five dollar a piece slugs. I think 650 is stretching the gun pretty much to its parameters, but with more scope who knows, however vertical stringing was becoming evident at the extended 750 yard range. This is just proof positive of what modern guns can achieve, none involved would have believed this, until we did it and it has become an obsession of mine since. I just wonder if im the only fool who has attempted such feats.


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 Post subject: Re: 12 or 20 gauge, Savage bolt slug gun?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2011 4:07 am 
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Buttonbuckslayer! wrote:
I recently did a ton of research on the 12 vs 20 debate. From everything that I can find, the 12 will outperform the 20 hands down in every equally matched load. By that, I mean same brand, same length load. The 12 will almost always have more energy, a larger diameter bullet, and less drop at all ranges. The 20 will always have less recoil. That being said, the 20 in its most powerful loads, is plenty powerful enough for deer at any distance that you can accurately and consistently shoot it. Anyone who can say they believe the 20 outperforms the 12, simply is ignoring the advertised ballistics given by the manufacturers. I am going with the twenty. It is enough knockdown power to do the job, without the excessive reoil of the 12. The same gun in 20 is usually substantially lighter than it's 12 counterpart. If gun weight, and recoil are not an issue, the 12 will outperform a 20.


Not true. 12 and 20 gauge saboted round external ballistics are identical. One example:

Image

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 Post subject: Re: 12 or 20 gauge, Savage bolt slug gun?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2011 4:33 am 
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Joined: Tue Nov 30, 2010 4:43 am
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OR....you could click on the drop down tab for ENERGY and reveal that the 12GA arrives at the longest range listed with 300 ft-lbs more than the 20GA. But if we are selectively comparing the two, yes, these two loads show identical drop and drift.


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 Post subject: Re: 12 or 20 gauge, Savage bolt slug gun?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2011 9:07 am 
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The "energy" doesn't matter much, the reason a .30-30 or a .30-06 kills a deer just as dead. The gauge would be a .73 caliber rifle and there is a good reason .73 caliber rifles aren't used. The 20 gauge platform outperforms the 12 for several reasons: it is also more accurate in general and far more comfortable to shoot. The 20 gauge is also far better-handling. http://randywakeman.com/Savage212SlugGun.htm.

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 Post subject: Re: 12 or 20 gauge, Savage bolt slug gun?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2011 12:13 pm 
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RandyWakeman wrote:
The gauge would be a .73 caliber rifle and there is a good reason .73 caliber rifles aren't used.


Only for full bore 12g, but you were talking about sabot slugs.


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 Post subject: Re: 12 or 20 gauge, Savage bolt slug gun?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2011 12:19 pm 
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And a 20 gauge would be close to a .62 caliber, another caliber not used.

250 grain, .45 caliber projectiles have been terrific whitetail whackers for a long time by now. Whether it is 90-100 grains by volume of Pyrodex out of an Knight MK-85 or the same bullet out of a 20 gauge slug gun, there is no difference.

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 Post subject: Re: 12 or 20 gauge, Savage bolt slug gun?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2011 12:32 pm 
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I have been killing Deer for Close to 20 years with my fully riffled 12ga. If I was to get a new slug gun I would get the Savage 220

A Deer at 120 yards (my longest shot) is dead with either gauge so the 20 just makes sense. And anyone shooting a slug at Deer past 150 yards hasn't looked at the trajectory of their slug. Almost all of the Deer I have taken with my shotgun have been under 80 yards


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 Post subject: Re: 12 or 20 gauge, Savage bolt slug gun?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2011 12:40 pm 
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http://randywakeman.com/MoreWithTheSavage220F.htm

It is center of the body hold to 165 yards or so-- no holdover, no nothing, just go pick him up.

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 Post subject: Re: 12 or 20 gauge, Savage bolt slug gun?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2011 1:03 pm 
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Image

Alright....165 yards


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 Post subject: Re: 12 or 20 gauge, Savage bolt slug gun?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2011 1:18 pm 
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See http://randywakeman.com/TheMythofExpandingBulletsandtheDemiseof12GaugeSlug.htm.

The range you shoot at is of course your decision and really nobody's business. There are invariably a lot of questions about "how far can I shoot my slug gun?" and "how far can I shoot my muzzleloader?" . . . but rarely how far can I shoot my .30-30 or my .45-70. All up to you.

When I was younger, deer hunting was in Michigan, U.P. You couldn't see 100 yards in the timber, so regardless of what people used . . . it wasn't an issue. Fifty to sixty yards was it, maybe 75 yards with snow on the ground. I don't remember anyone ever taking a 100 yard shot. Last year in northern Missouri, thick oak . . . the buck I shot was every bit of 60 yards. No way was there any shooting lanes past 75 yards or so.

Here, hedgerows and angle ditches, right now you have naked fields . . . so, sure, 200 yards isn't unusual at all.

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 Post subject: Re: 12 or 20 gauge, Savage bolt slug gun?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2011 9:38 pm 
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I understand the controversy over the 12 vs the 20, and if using a DSG, one might give the nod too the 20 due to lighter recoil, however that being said the 12 guage is the king and has been for some time in all areas of shotgunning. The 12 does more things and with less fuss than the twenty, and as far as slugs weight does equal knockdown. Everyone knows a 30-30 has killed a pile of deer, but so has the 3006 and we all know the difference here, I have shot few deer over a hundred yards but its nice to know your gun is capable, and with practice it sure adds a bit of confidence. I have hits at 633 yards on 18"x18" steele targets with witnesses, but that doesnt mean I advocate such shots on game. With that being said if shooting over a large cornfield in Ohio or Iowa, and a dream buck steps out at 200 yards which gun do you choose? I have full confidence in my Savage 212 at that distance.


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