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 Post subject: AYA Matador
PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 6:54 am 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Sun Apr 01, 2007 6:38 am
Posts: 104
Hey guys,

Got a question about an AYA Matador that I'm looking to sell for a buddy and wondered if anyone could lend some advice...

I'm not sure how long AYA made the Matador, but this is definitely on the newer end of the spectrum. It is not a "J.C. Penny" model like some I've seen. On the top lever there is a gold engraving of the modern AYA logo. This thing is in great shape. The only flaw I can find is that there is some bluing rubbed off where the gun has been carried (tang and trigger guard areas). Other than that, the wood is great (nice figure and finish and no scratches or dents) and metal is free of rust and dings.

This 12 gauge has to be a waterfowl model, as the barrels are F/F, 32" long, and has 3" chambers.

Here are the specs (roughly):

14 1/4" LOP to black decelerator pad.
9 lbs., 13.8 oz.
Single selective trigger
Raised rib

Can anyone give me an idea of the history of this gun and how much I should list it for sale?

Thanks.

JOzzy


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 Post subject: Re: AYA Matador
PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 9:15 am 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Tue Apr 26, 2011 9:10 am
Posts: 144
do yourself a favor and do not sell it to anybody that you are friends with. Many years ago the Spanish guns had a very bad name as they were problematic. Soft steel and trigger problems. This was one of the guns that helped promote that reputation. The single triggers one these can be a nightmare to fix them too.



John Boyd
Quality Arms


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 Post subject: Re: AYA Matador
PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 10:11 am 
Crown Grade

Joined: Mon Aug 07, 2006 9:56 am
Posts: 6610
Location: Maryland
Are you sure that thing is a 12 gauge? Tell us the serial number and someone will tell you when it was made.


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 Post subject: Re: AYA Matador
PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 10:46 am 
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Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2008 2:03 pm
Posts: 3626
Location: peoples socialist republic
qualityarms wrote:
do yourself a favor and do not sell it to anybody that you are friends with. Many years ago the Spanish guns had a very bad name as they were problematic. Soft steel and trigger problems. This was one of the guns that helped promote that reputation. The single triggers one these can be a nightmare to fix them too.



John Boyd
Quality Arms



Really!!! First, let me say to the topic poster, Matador was never sold by Penny, Sears or any other outlet store and the gun in question is probably a 10 ga.

Dear John, "soft steel" give me a break. Never heard of it in any Aya. There were some soft firing pins a number of Spanish had problems with in the 80s. And some soft internals by lessor makers prior to that.

As an owner of quite a few Spanish guns including Ugartecheas, Arizagas, Garbi, Sarasquetas; Matadors are very well crafted for their price point. Here is my Matador the last day of last season. A 1966 16 ga with many miles and the character to show it and never problem one and barrel regulation smack on; a bird killing machine.

Image

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"I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people...to disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."..
founding father George Mason.


Last edited by Patriot usa on Tue Aug 23, 2011 9:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: AYA Matador
PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 11:03 am 
*Proud to be a*
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Posts: 4125
John,

You are not helping your reputation as a knowledgeable gun dealer with comments like that. That topic has been well covered here and some background reading just may bring you up to speed.

Patriot hits the steel issue well and succinctly.

Single trigger issues have been amply covered here also and in Spanish Best quite well. You are right about SST. SST on Spanish guns have been problematic, but again AyA seems to have had the best of the lot when it comes to SST and I personally have never heard of an AyA with a problem.

I have a Zabala Hermanos gun that gave me problems as have had several others.


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 Post subject: Re: AYA Matador
PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 12:42 pm 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Sun Apr 01, 2007 6:38 am
Posts: 104
Gents,

Thanks for your comments, even though some are discouraging.

The gun is indeed a 12 gauge - stamp on barrel says so as does my check tool.

The serial #110256.

It also states it was imported by Firearms International Corp, Washington, D.C.

Hope that helps.

Thanks

JOzzy


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 Post subject: Re: AYA Matador
PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 1:24 pm 
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Posts: 3626
Location: peoples socialist republic
Hmmm; none of my books show 32", but they don't show 10 ga either which I know they made.

My ser. no. is 117xxx so, it's in the range for late 50s I would say. That is the correct importer for Matadors.

_________________
over the hill and picking up speed.

"I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people...to disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."..
founding father George Mason.


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 Post subject: Re: AYA Matador
PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 2:48 pm 
Crown Grade
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Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2009 10:59 am
Posts: 3932
Location: Neosho, MO
You guys scare me to death sometimes. I bought an AYA Matador 16 ga 28" barrels after discussing it with this forum. The barrels are currently at Kirby the gunsmith getting the chokes opened to IC/Mod and the forcing cones lengthened. I nearly croaked when I read the post about what a piece of crap the Matador was. Don't do this to me.

Chorizo,
I recently bought a BSA Classic 16 ga and had Briley install Thinwall chokes in it. Since getting the barrels back, I've shot informal clays from my Aerial Assault and a few rounds of 5 stand with the trigger functioning flawlessly. What is your single trigger ZH doing that I need to look for?

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An elderly gentleman, his faithful dog, and a 16 ga SXS. All is right with the world.


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 Post subject: Re: AYA Matador
PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 5:34 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Fri Jun 30, 2006 1:15 am
Posts: 2038
Location: St Anthony, North Dakota
:) Hi RM, don't worry to much! Just enjoy your gun. Now for my 2C. I have a Matador III in 20ga. I've had this gun for close to 30yrs and it was my favorite go to gun for clsoe to 20yrs for upland game. It has a SST. I have never had a problem with that trigger. Not one. And believe me, I used that gun alot. I also have owned a few ZH guns with SST, never a problem with one of them.

With Spanish SST/SNST, it just seems that it's the luck of the draw, it either works or it don't.

All I can say, they have worked for me (with one exception and that gun was not an AyA or ZH gun).

I gifted my Matador III to my son, and he's happy as a clam with it.

Best of luck to you!

Greg


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 Post subject: Re: AYA Matador
PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 8:48 pm 
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Joined: Mon May 28, 2007 10:49 am
Posts: 4125
RM,

Greg is spot on. Either they work like a champ or they don't. If your is working fine, don't worry. Usually a good cleaning of the inertia system helps if it starts acting up.

Mine was a barrel switch problem. It would not switch to the right barrel after firing the left barrel.

I took it apart and polished some items and cleaned away some grease and it works ok.

Mine was a 28 ga also, so a 16 ga...or 12 ga..., with a little more recoil, seem to work better than the smaller gauges. like 20, 410, or 28.


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 Post subject: Re: AYA Matador
PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 9:41 pm 
Utility Grade

Joined: Thu Jul 24, 2008 9:27 am
Posts: 16
Location: west Michigan
Back to the topic of this AYA Matador and it's assumed value.

I always enjoy reading the posts on this forum as I own several Spanish shotguns; I've learned a lot over the last several years from those that know more. That being said, I need to politely disagree with the authors of several prior posts.

One, I own an AYA Matador and it has never shown any cause for concern with respect to its performance; this gun is not a wall hanger and gets used.

Two, before buying this gun I did some research and found out AYA sold the Matador as a "run gun" through Sears & Roebuck in an effort to get a foot hold in the American shotgun market. The Matador I purchased has the Sears & Roebuck, Chicago, IL stamped on the barrell. This fact is kind of hard to argue against when it's stamped into the barrell.

Third, I have since seen other Matador's that look as if they were a precursor to the popular AYA 4/53 boxlock. These guns have nothing to do with Sears and are a stand alone AYA almost as if they were several generations of the gun removed from the "run guns" of the 1960's.

Macatawa


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 Post subject: Re: AYA Matador
PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 10:23 pm 
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Well, you were doing great until the third paragraph.

The model 4 AyA (a copy of the A&D for the English market) was around before the Matador so the Matador was never a precursor to anything other than the follow on Matador models.

In short, the #4 was made for the English market and the Matador for the American market.

Here is a history of AyA on AyA's website that addresses just that issue:

http://aya-fineguns.com/historia_en.php ... ros%20dias

The gun in question (serial number 110XXX) was imported around 1958/59 making it one of the first Matadors produced

1955 to 1959 — 72,000 to 115,286

Patriot, yours was imported in the early 1960's
1960 to 1965 — 115,287 to 222,508


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 Post subject: Re: AYA Matador
PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 10:40 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jan 04, 2007 11:23 pm
Posts: 11856
Location: MO
I have a Matador II that has a slight SST problem.

It will occasionally double, if the right barrel is fired first. A trip to the
smith didn't fix it and it was full& mod so, ream time.

I reilived the chokes in reverse of the normal configuration, so the left barrel
is the more open. Never had another double since

Except when I purposely switched it back to right barrel first.

_________________
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 Post subject: Re: AYA Matador
PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 7:10 pm 
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Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2009 10:59 am
Posts: 3932
Location: Neosho, MO
My 16 ga Matador is serial 91XXX which would appear to be about a 1957 gun if I'm figuring correctly. Dang, I was a junior in high school when that gun was new. Considering scratches and scars, I'd say the gun is doing better than I am.

That link to AYA history is sure fine reading material.

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An elderly gentleman, his faithful dog, and a 16 ga SXS. All is right with the world.


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 Post subject: Re: AYA Matador
PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 8:21 pm 
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Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2008 2:03 pm
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Location: peoples socialist republic
Macatawa wrote:
Back to the topic of this AYA Matador and it's assumed value.

I always enjoy reading the posts on this forum as I own several Spanish shotguns; I've learned a lot over the last several years from those that know more. That being said, I need to politely disagree with the authors of several prior posts.

One, I own an AYA Matador and it has never shown any cause for concern with respect to its performance; this gun is not a wall hanger and gets used.

Two, before buying this gun I did some research and found out AYA sold the Matador as a "run gun" through Sears & Roebuck in an effort to get a foot hold in the American shotgun market. The Matador I purchased has the Sears & Roebuck, Chicago, IL stamped on the barrell. This fact is kind of hard to argue against when it's stamped into the barrell.

Third, I have since seen other Matador's that look as if they were a precursor to the popular AYA 4/53 boxlock. These guns have nothing to do with Sears and are a stand alone AYA almost as if they were several generations of the gun removed from the "run guns" of the 1960's.

Macatawa


I have seen a lot of Matadors and never one with a sears number on it. I would love to see a pic of the side of the receiver and the barrel with sears number on it.

The only Aya I know of sold by sears was the model 100. Believe me, if sears sold a gun, it had their model number on it.

Image

L O L

_________________
over the hill and picking up speed.

"I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people...to disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."..
founding father George Mason.


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 Post subject: Re: AYA Matador
PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 10:08 pm 
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Patriot,

Never, ever let the facts get in the way! Image

Image


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 Post subject: Re: AYA Matador
PostPosted: Fri Aug 26, 2011 9:54 am 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Tue Apr 26, 2011 9:10 am
Posts: 144
Well fellows I guess we will have to disagree on this one. Although I agree with many of you, on this we will have to differ on the matador. I can only based my thoughts on 37 years doing this on my own. Buying and selling Spanish guns, both new and used. Been down the repair road too on these kinds of guns. I have one here now, that needs repaired. You want to buy it! I always wish you good service out of any gun you buy or own. Just relating my experiences and others in the trade.

Best and thanks


John Boyd


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 Post subject: Re: AYA Matador
PostPosted: Fri Aug 26, 2011 10:11 am 
*Proud to be a*
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And in that, we thank you John.

By providing context with specific references to which guns by which maker, your statements will have much more credibility. We have all heard the same old refrains about soft Spanish Steel, most of them from people who shoot semi autos who knew someone who once heard that a friend of theirs knew a guy that once had a problem with a Spanish SxS becasue of soft steel.

First hand specifically referenced experience is much more credible.

I will give you my first hand experience. I have (right now...I have owned no less than 25 of them and been around Spanish shotguns my whole life) 17 Spanish sidelocks and boxlocks made from 1941-2003 and each one has been shot extensively. I got rid of the others because they didn't fit me, not because they were problematic. Only ONE of them has given me any problem whatsoever. A TriStar Zabala Hermanos with a SST problems that I solved myself by cleaning and polishing the inertia trigger parts.

Let us all remember that literally 10s of thousands of Spanish guns have been imported to the USA. Gunsmiths, like doctors, only see the broken (sick) patients.

Mitch


Last edited by chorizo on Fri Aug 26, 2011 10:35 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: AYA Matador
PostPosted: Fri Aug 26, 2011 10:27 am 
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Joined: Thu Jan 04, 2007 11:23 pm
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Location: MO
I have owned some of both, soft and hard, Spanish steel.

Occasionally, even in the same gun!

Replacement or re-heat treating, of the troubling part, sometimes fabricated by self, usually solved
the problem.

_________________
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If you like your health care, you CAN'T keep it!
Remember who and which party did this to you! VOTE!
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 Post subject: Re: AYA Matador
PostPosted: Fri Aug 26, 2011 10:46 am 
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Additionally, knowing the process how the guns are made and having walked the factory floors more than once over the last 17 years, it becomes obvious that "soft Spanish Steel" is truely a bunch of malarky. The "generic" steel has nothing to do with it. It is the person who hardens/processes the parts with bearing surfaces or load bearing forces who fails to do his job properly. As JugChoke so correctly states, if can be found all (hard and soft) on the same gun because someone was inadequate at their job (failing to harden to the right level) while another was much more experienced (and got things heated and treated just right). These guns are artisan guns, with each gun and part individually processed and fitted.

But hey, if folks want to believe the soft Spanish steel story, it will sure keep the bidders and the prices down, so have at it.


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