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 Post subject: Loading Remington STS hulls vs. Winchester AA HS hulls
PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2011 6:23 pm 
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Is it just me or has anyone else come to the conclusion that Remington STS's are so much easier to load and get perfect crimps and good component"fit" over Winchester AA HS hulls? I have lots of Winchester hulls and would like to use them but getting the adjustments made is a bear! I have 5 different Remington STS hull loads that I can load on my MEC 600 and don't have to touch a thing and get perfect crimps and great fit every time. I have a seperate MEC 600 I use for Winchester AA HS hulls and seems I can hardly get decent crimps and components to "fit" the hull correctly. I'm sure with the right combination good crimps are attainable. I shoot mainly Clays and Longshot and Longshot heavy loads are all about I can get to crimp that look halfway decent. I have a load for the Winchesters with 7/8 oz. of shot. I loaded a box a few days ago and got pretty good crimps. I tried again today to load the same load and crimps looked like crap. It seems most of the "recipes" for the Winchester hulls must be for the older hulls and don't fit in the newer ones. Most seem like too much for the hull. Let me know your thoughts please!




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 Post subject: Re: Loading Remington STS hulls vs. Winchester AA HS hulls
PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2011 6:37 pm 
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Location: Southeast MI
I too find it much easier to load any Remington hull than WinAAs (won't even bother to mention the Win Universal hulls). In fact, I've gotten so picky that I now only pick up Remington hulls, and only 8-point in 12-ga, either 6-pt or 8-pt in 20-ga. I let any WinAA hull fly if it happens to be in the mix from long ago.


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 Post subject: Re: Loading Remington STS hulls vs. Winchester AA HS hulls
PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2011 6:57 pm 
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Location: Western Massachusetts
It's the other way around with 28 ga.


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 Post subject: Re: Loading Remington STS hulls vs. Winchester AA HS hulls
PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2011 7:08 pm 
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Location: Eastern Nebraska
I gotta agree with your comment about published recipes. I suspect a fair bit of it is for the old CF AA hulls. There are a lot of published loads for AA hulls that will only fit in AA HS hulls if you have a hydraulic press. AND, you better shoot them in a day or two or you will have lot of shot rattling around in the bottom of the box. I have loaded at least 5K of AAHS and have discovered that if you are trying for 1 1/8 ounce loads a few things that help:

Try 17 grains of E3. This is published Alliant load and the 17 of E3 takes up a lot less space than a lot of 1 1/8 once 1200 FPS powder charges.

If you want a traditional load like 1 1/8 and 18 grains of Promo or Red Dot then try the Claybuster CB1114 wad. This is nominally a 1 1/4 once wad but the shot cup fits 1 1/8 just right and it all fits in an AAHS nicely. I E-mailed CB and they tell me that lots of customers use this wad for 1 1/8 in an AAHS.

Use Downrange wads. Their "AA clones" are shorter than real AAs or Claybuster AA's. In an AAHS they make things fit much better.

I have not tried them yet, but I suspect some of the recently published Alliant 20/28 12 gauge loads would fit much better.

From an engineering point of view I think the real problem is the hull construction. There are a lot of good ballistic reasons for a tapered wall hull. You can make a tapered wall by molding a hull that is all one piece and has a taper (the old AACF and nearly all Remingtons.) You can also make a special base wad that has a really tall tapered lip on it and put this in a cylindrical sleeve (AAHS.) The wad drops down into the taper on this base wad and with regards to ballistics, acts like a tapered wall. Mechanically the tall tapered lip on this base wad does not do much as far as reinforcing the cylindrical sleeve. On a Remington hull or an AACF it is okay if the shot sits a little bit high before the crimping stage. The final crimp die will push everything down to where it needs to be and compress the wad a bit. This is exactly what Hornady says happens in the 366 owners manual. An AACF and a Remington is pretty thick in the area right at the middle of the wad. It is thick enough that it will tend not not buckle in this pushing down process. The actual case wall of an AAHS is pretty thin at this area of the compression section of the wad. If the top of the shot is too high and the final crimp die tries to push everything down this thin wall will buckle. The AAHS is not very forgiving. Before the final crimp die the top of the shot needs to be at a level that leaves enough room for the final crimp. The final crimp die will push things down to where they need to be. If this pushing down includes the wad and the shot then the case wall will buckle.

These are my thoughts on the AAHS- no doubt others have other opinions.

I see others have offered comments- I need to clarify that my experience is on 12 and 20 gauge only.


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 Post subject: Re: Loading Remington STS hulls vs. Winchester AA HS hulls
PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2011 7:17 pm 
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Joined: Tue Nov 15, 2005 9:33 pm
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Location: Mascoutah IL
I agree for 12 and 20 gauge, but believe the exact opposite is true for 28 and 410.


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 Post subject: Re: Loading Remington STS hulls vs. Winchester AA HS hulls
PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2011 7:49 pm 
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Joined: Sat Sep 19, 2009 4:56 pm
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Location: South Central MO Ozarks
That's why I and many others who regularly post here have chosen to load Rem hulls exclusively.

When I first got back into reloading in 1987, the fellow who helped me set up my reloader told me to, "stick to the Winchester AA hulls for reloading, they are the very best and easiest to load". I followed that principle until Win butchered a once great hull and started producing the AA HS. Don't get me wrong, they absolutely are reloadable and, with the proper adjustments, will produce excellent reloads. I simply find that the far more plentiful and useable Remington hulls are mush better and don't require all the finicky adjustments.

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 Post subject: Re: Loading Remington STS hulls vs. Winchester AA HS hulls
PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2011 8:51 pm 
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I must be doing things all wrong in reloading. I reload all gauges on Mec 9000's. In the 12 gauge I reload AA grey hulls, silver hulls, red hulls. In Remington hulls I reload STS's, Nitro's, gun clubs, an game loads. All on the same press, all at the same time. I can put in a AAHS red hull, a STS, a AA silver hull, a gun club, a black game load, a AA red, etc. All come out looking great, great looking crimps an no buckled hulls. No adjustments to the loader for the different types of hull either. These are all 1 oz. loads using Clays powder an CB1100 wads with very little wad pressure. 1200 fps loads.

What am I doing wrong?

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 Post subject: Re: Loading Remington STS hulls vs. Winchester AA HS hulls
PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2011 10:20 pm 
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Joined: Tue Nov 15, 2005 9:33 pm
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Location: Mascoutah IL
EyeMissum wrote:

What am I doing wrong?


Not reading the OP carefully enough.


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 Post subject: Re: Loading Remington STS hulls vs. Winchester AA HS hulls
PostPosted: Thu Sep 01, 2011 11:43 am 
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Joined: Sat Sep 19, 2009 4:56 pm
Posts: 2770
Location: South Central MO Ozarks
EyeMissum wrote:
I must be doing things all wrong in reloading. I reload all gauges on Mec 9000's. In the 12 gauge I reload AA grey hulls, silver hulls, red hulls. In Remington hulls I reload STS's, Nitro's, gun clubs, an game loads. All on the same press, all at the same time. I can put in a AAHS red hull, a STS, a AA silver hull, a gun club, a black game load, a AA red, etc. All come out looking great, great looking crimps an no buckled hulls. No adjustments to the loader for the different types of hull either. These are all 1 oz. loads using Clays powder an CB1100 wads with very little wad pressure. 1200 fps loads.

What am I doing wrong?


Don -

Not doing anything wrong! I too can get great loads with the AA HS hulls. It's just that it's so much easier with the Rem hulls.

If you are happy with the AA HS, great. Different strokes for different folks.

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"Any man who thinks he can be happy and prosperous by letting the government take care of him; better take a closer look at the American Indian." Henry Ford


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 Post subject: Re: Loading Remington STS hulls vs. Winchester AA HS hulls
PostPosted: Thu Sep 01, 2011 12:58 pm 
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Joined: Sat Feb 05, 2005 4:51 pm
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Location: E. Rochester NY
For the 12 and 20 gauge I agree with the above post. For the 28 and .410, AA-HS hulls are the best for better reloads and hull life. (And I don't know why??)

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 Post subject: Re: Loading Remington STS hulls vs. Winchester AA HS hulls
PostPosted: Thu Sep 01, 2011 1:27 pm 
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Casing,
I have posted this several times, but I guesss it doesn't get read by many. I'll npost it one more time for you and it should cure your problems.

First off, it's a given that the newer AA HS cases DO NOT have as much capacity as do the older CF cases, nor the Remington STS cases.

With that knowledge, and also knowing that the recommended powder charge weights and shot charge weights are the same as the other cases, what is the lodgical solution.????

That solution is that you need a WAD that is a bit shorter, and will allow room for those components and leave room for a decent crimp.

Fortunately, Down Range has provided such a wad. It is the DRA series of wads. It is an exact clone of the Winchester wads, EXCEPT the cushion section,(leggs), are a tad shorter than the Winchesters, thereby leaving additional room for the components, and a decent crimp.

These wads are made in 3 sizes, 1oz, (Red), 1-1/8 oz, (White), and 1-1/4 oz, (Yellow).
These wads directly replace the AA wads, or clones thereof, listed in all powder manufactuters load books, and the ballistics are exactly the same. No increases in pressures.

Simply use these wads when loading AA HS cases, and all will be well. Yes, you probably will still need to tweak the crimp station, in defference to the shorter AA case, but your components will fit and the final crimps will look like factory.

DLM

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 Post subject: Re: Loading Remington STS hulls vs. Winchester AA HS hulls
PostPosted: Thu Sep 01, 2011 1:38 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jul 23, 2010 8:56 am
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Thye load fine in my Lee Load All. No adjustments required with perfect crimps everytime. Even get about 6-9 reloads from the silver colored steel headed Wal Mart 100 round value packs.

slomo


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 Post subject: Re: Loading Remington STS hulls vs. Winchester AA HS hulls
PostPosted: Thu Sep 01, 2011 1:55 pm 
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slomo wrote:
Thye load fine in my Lee Load All. No adjustments required with perfect crimps everytime. Even get about 6-9 reloads from the silver colored steel headed Wal Mart 100 round value packs.

slomo


Those are NOT AA hulls. Secondly Winchester does NOT recommend that those hulls be reloaded. Period. They are made to shoot and discard. They are made very flinsy and are possibly the worst hull you could be attempting to reload. Sorry ole' Buddy.

Buy the Remington 100 packs and you will have decent hulls to reload.

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 Post subject: Re: Loading Remington STS hulls vs. Winchester AA HS hulls
PostPosted: Thu Sep 01, 2011 2:08 pm 
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I agree with almost everything written above. The only AA HS hulls that I reload are for .410 and 28 ga. Everything else is Remington all the way, black green gold, whatever. I also don't like the idea of a separate base wad in the Winchesters. My concerns may be unfounded, and there thas been pages written on this web site about this subject, but I don't like them. At our club, the AA hulls get tossed and the Remingtons get picked up. Its the new normal.

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 Post subject: Re: Loading Remington STS hulls vs. Winchester AA HS hulls
PostPosted: Thu Sep 01, 2011 2:38 pm 
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I love the fact that so many folks just leave their AAs lay. They work extremely well for me. Not that there is anything particularly wrong with the Remingtons, I load lots of them too. Can't say I have any particular difficulty with either one. The Remingtons seem to get crispy, stiff crimps, and suck together sooner than the AAs. That can be kind of a pain. In that respect I prefer the AAs myself.

I load either one exactly the same change nothing except the primer seating stem from one hull to the other. They all come out pretty much perfect.

BP

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 Post subject: Re: Loading Remington STS hulls vs. Winchester AA HS hulls
PostPosted: Thu Sep 01, 2011 5:25 pm 
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Joined: Sun Feb 13, 2005 2:20 pm
Posts: 4479
Location: Pointe Coupee Parish, South La.
The club where I shoot the most has tons of AA HS on the ground and while I really like the Gun Clubs with our humidity here in south La. you can almost watch the Gun Clubs start to rust as they fall towards the ground. If i'm not there to p.u. the hulls as they are shot they remain on the ground as I won't load rusty hulls. That leaves me AA HS and a few STS every now and then. I have 30K of 1f AA HS and use the 1oz DRA wad with no problems in my 9000w/Automate. Then that's just me.

P.S, I load the STS on a 366 set up just for them and the AA HS on the 9000.


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 Post subject: Re: Loading Remington STS hulls vs. Winchester AA HS hulls
PostPosted: Thu Sep 01, 2011 7:54 pm 
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Any shell is reloadible ,if your eq,components and adjustments are right.There are some shells that have better plastics than others.I have barrel fulls of gun clubs,Estates,universals and federals,that
other shooters won't try to reload.I stay away from rio's , diana's fiochhi,etc, because I don't want to
buy the fiocchi type primers, although I have reloaded them also.I use a CB1100-12 wad wa12sl for the
AAHS shell and STS both work just fine.I do not load the w/w super x-shell because the plastics are
crummy.


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 Post subject: Re: Loading Remington STS hulls vs. Winchester AA HS hulls
PostPosted: Fri Sep 02, 2011 9:57 am 
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I would not load Winchester Universals either. They are the worst of the worst; hardly fit to shoot when new.

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 Post subject: Re: Loading Remington STS hulls vs. Winchester AA HS hulls
PostPosted: Fri Sep 02, 2011 8:12 pm 
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Thanks for all the replys! I guess Remington STS's and Winchester AA HS's are like Chevrolet and Ford. Some love em and some hate em. I still wish I could get great loads, "crimps and fit" out of the Win's like I can the Remingtons!.................. Any more thoughts guys please comment.


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 Post subject: Re: Loading Remington STS hulls vs. Winchester AA HS hulls
PostPosted: Fri Sep 02, 2011 8:31 pm 
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casing wrote:
Thanks for all the replys! I guess Remington STS's and Winchester AA HS's are like Chevrolet and Ford. Some love em and some hate em. I still wish I could get great loads, "crimps and fit" out of the Win's like I can the Remingtons!.................. Any more thoughts guys please comment.


Casing,
Read my post again.... You CAN get great loads and GREAT crimps, if you use the correct wad. Buy 1 bag or the DRA wads and try them. You will be amazed!!

DLM



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