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 Post subject: Shotgun plugs and the law
PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2004 5:48 am 
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I saw a discussion on another web site about shotgun plugs and a guy who identified himself as a federal warden writing tickets for shotgun plug violations. Point of it was that someone who had a shotgun plugged for the magazine to hold a maximum of two 3 1/2 inch 12 ga could be in violation if the warden's trusty gauge showed it could hold more than two 2 3/4 inch shells. Discussion went on that some thought rules ment two three inch shells. Another thought if you, or any of the people you were hunting with had the shorter shells you would be in violation, but if you all had the longer shells you were ok. I had never seen anything like this and tried to do the math. Two 3 1/2 inch shells = 7 inches. Three 2 3/4 = 8 1/4. Of course this is fired length, not loaded, but the comparison of 1 1/4 inch should be same. Shotguns I have used always had a little extra space after the two rounds were loaded, but never enough room for a third shell. I guess depending on the plug length and what shells you had you could have a problem.
Then of course there are 12 ga shells much shorter than 2 3/4 like the little Mexican ones sold a few years ago or even 2 1/2 inch. I just never gave anythought to this if a shotgun had the factory plug you were good to go.




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 Post subject: Re: Shotgun plugs and the law
PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2004 6:37 am 
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If true, the 'Warden' was technically in the right...But he was a prize SOB if the guys only had 3 shells total in the gun when they unloaded and handed it to him...

Personally, I can count on one hand when I have needed/used that third shell...This is since I started hunting waterfowl in 1972...

Most of the time I am using a SxS, so I don't worry anyway...

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 Post subject: Re: Shotgun plugs and the law
PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2004 9:08 am 
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I was always under the impression that plugs came in a standard length, so there isn't anything you could do about it.

I don't think the guys did anything wrong, and like Salmoneye said, the warden was a major SOB.

Rob

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 Post subject: Re: Shotgun plugs and the law
PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2004 9:10 am 
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That is one ticket I would definately fight in court.


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 Post subject: Re: Shotgun plugs and the law
PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2004 9:18 am 
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Not all plugs are the same length or shape...

I have several, including home-made ones...One looks like hickory and hand shaved at that...It came from my Great-Aunt Gretia in the Model 11 she passed to me...

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 Post subject: Re: Shotgun plugs and the law
PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2004 10:27 am 
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You would be amazed at how many guys try to cheat, from "floating" a 4th shell to shaved plugs. Don't blame the warden when he is just doing what we are paying him to do.
If you don't want that hastle, make sure your gun is legal. There wasnt that easy.

tom

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 Post subject: Re: Shotgun plugs and the law
PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2004 11:21 pm 
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I agree with Blunder. All you have to do is make sure that you cannot put more than two 2 3/4" shells in you magazine and you are legal. Wardens have a plastic tube that they stick into the magazine and if it goes passed the legal mark you get a ticket. This is what the law says and it is what we pay our conservation officers to check for. It is really simple.

If you want to be able to have a gun that will carry more than three shells,then you should work to change the law,not bad mouth the guys that we hire to uphold the laws that we have made. This is not a grey area that a DNR has made in some ruling. It is a law,in fact part of an international treaty,that Congress passed.


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 Post subject: Re: Shotgun plugs and the law
PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2004 11:46 pm 
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My grandpa and I took apart my 28 guage wingmaster the day he gave it to me, for a thorough cleaning, because it was his brothers gun, and after he died, it hadn't been shot until I shot it (10 years), and laughed when we found a regualr pencil in the tube for a plug. But hey, it works. :D

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 Post subject: Re: Shotgun plugs and the law
PostPosted: Tue Aug 10, 2004 9:29 am 
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My father forgot the plug for his A-5 one year before deer season and we plug his gun with a peice of pine branch broke off to the correct length. We did this while on his way to his deer stand opening morning.

mcb


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 Post subject: Re: Shotgun plugs and the law
PostPosted: Tue Aug 10, 2004 9:32 am 
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You have to plug a shotgun for deer in Ohio???

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 Post subject: Re: Shotgun plugs and the law
PostPosted: Tue Aug 10, 2004 3:20 pm 
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Yep, they did that to us about 10 years ago or so. You ought to see the length of the plug for my Winchester 9410 Traditional model. The Magazine hold 9 rounds of 2.5in 410 so the plug is 18.5 inches long to plug that long magazine. The plug requirement nearly cost me a deer last year. Given the serious case of buck fever I was suferin' when I saw the deer it took five shots to get the job done.

mcb


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 Post subject: Re: Shotgun plugs and the law
PostPosted: Tue Aug 10, 2004 3:25 pm 
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Dang...The only thing we need plugs for here is Waterfowl...

Of course they do limit our 'semi-autos' to 7 rounds while hunting (anything over .22 rimfire that is)...

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 Post subject: Re: Shotgun plugs and the law
PostPosted: Tue Aug 10, 2004 3:47 pm 
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Upland hunting shotguns are to be plugged here in KY.
Max 3 shells. 2 in mag and 1 in barrel. Don't know about deer. We can use rifles.

Shotgun Red

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 Post subject: Re: Shotgun plugs and the law
PostPosted: Wed Aug 11, 2004 8:16 am 
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Why do you need more than three shots for any type of bird hunting? In my over 50 years of hunting haven't found a reason to have more than 3 shots. Come to think of it I only have 2 that will hold more than 3 and they're plugged, all the rest hold 1 or 2. 3.5 in. shotguns can and are plugged to hold only 2-2.75" shells in the magazine, I sure can't see where the problem is. Plug them and forget it.


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 Post subject: Re: Shotgun plugs and the law
PostPosted: Wed Aug 11, 2004 8:41 am 
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The point isn't whether you 'need' them, it is whether it is my choice, or a mandate from the government...

The 3 round limit on waterfowl was to curb wanton waste due to skybusting and to curb 'market hunting'...This (IMHO) has been a good thing...

I have often flushed more than 5 birds (ruffed grouse) seconds apart...If you are good enough, the limit here is 4 birds...

That said, I usually am carrying a gun with only 2 round capacity too, and quite often I will carry a single-shot...

Just found it interesting that some places make you plug your shotgun for big-game...

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 Post subject: Re: Shotgun plugs and the law
PostPosted: Wed Aug 11, 2004 12:52 pm 
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Salmoneye, It is not a mandate from the government. It is the law passed by an elected Congress. Big difference.

It was originally passed when market hunting was under fire and John Dillenger was robbing two banks a day.

Now,plug rulings from a state's DNR are often a mandate of a department and not a passed law by elected officials but they are enforced as a law. Doesn't seem fair,does it?


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 Post subject: Re: Shotgun plugs and the law
PostPosted: Wed Aug 11, 2004 1:49 pm 
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I still don't know if anyone has addressed an early question concerning plug length.
a "plugged" 2 3/4 " needs 5.5", a plugged 3 1/2" needs 7", are you wrong if the gaming warden checks you with his plastic feeler on a 3 1/2" gun that has room left over? or are you only wrong if 3 shells of any kind will fit into the magazine tube? or are you up to the discretion of the game warden? (the discretion option would kinda frighten me, i have known as many game wardens who used their authority like a club as actually were wardens of the wilds)
mike


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 Post subject: Re: Shotgun plugs and the law
PostPosted: Wed Aug 11, 2004 2:24 pm 
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Quote:
Salmoneye, It is not a mandate from the government. It is the law passed by an elected Congress. Big difference.


Uh...One of the accepted definitions of 'mandate'...

v. man·dat·ed, man·dat·ing, man·dates:

To make mandatory, as by law; decree or require:


Any law passed at any level requiring compliance is
a 'mandate' as far as that definition goes...My point is that the plugged shotgun for waterfowl is one of the few 'gun laws' we have here and it is 'mandated' by the Feds and not at the state level...

Quote:
or are you up to the discretion of the game warden?


Enforcement of all laws are up to the LEO that first encounters them...Some officers will let you off if they are in a good mood, you are truthful or they feel that the infraction is 'unfair' to you...Conversely, they can also be sticklers and 'find' more than the first thing they stopped or inspected you for...

The classic example of this is getting a warning instead of a speeding ticket...

JMHO

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 Post subject: Re: Shotgun plugs and the law
PostPosted: Wed Aug 11, 2004 2:42 pm 
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Check out this site for the training of RCMP...

http://www.rcmp-learning.org/docs/ecdd1212.htm

Good 'ethical' and enforcement questions...

I hope our wardens and LEO's are getting similar 'ethics' courses...

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 Post subject: Re: Shotgun plugs and the law
PostPosted: Wed Aug 11, 2004 2:54 pm 
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Location: Maryland
In Virginia my experience with the Game Warden relative to the number of shells in a shotgun magazine is measured by the Warden asking you what shells are you shooting? and then to eject all shells from the firearm.The Warden reloads the gun with the shells he observed ejected back into the firearm this count should not exceed local laws. This is how an ethical field evaluation is performed against what the hunter is using. This process should determine whether the hunter is lawful.




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