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 Post subject: Stoeger or ??? for my first autoloader?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2011 2:51 am 
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I'm considering a Stoeger 2000 or 3500 for my first autoloader. I plan to use it for clays, dove and turkey. I would like my shotgun to handle 2.75 and 3" ... the 3.5" isn't necessary, but from reading these forums, it seems that the recoil of the 3500 is substantially less than the 2000? My budget is 500ish and less ...

I'm also considering:
Legacy Sports Escort Magnum
Yildiz A71
H&R Excell
Baikal MP153

Thanks for taking the time to read and respond ...



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 Post subject: Re: Stoeger or ??? for my first autoloader?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2011 7:34 am 
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Dick's has the 2000 on sale for $399.00. The 3500 is close to $600.00 I think. Shooting the same shell the 3500 would kick less as it is heavier. For $399.00 I think the 2000 is the best buy out there!!
Dave


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 Post subject: Re: Stoeger or ??? for my first autoloader?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2011 7:44 am 
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If your budget is $500, look for a used 1187 or Beretta 303/390/391/3901. Any of these will be lightyears ahead of the options you listed.

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 Post subject: Re: Stoeger or ??? for my first autoloader?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 11:23 am 
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Skeet_Man wrote:
If your budget is $500, look for a used 1187 or Beretta 303/390/391/3901. Any of these will be lightyears ahead of the options you listed.

The 11-87 and 300 series are gas-guns, totally different animals. "Different", yes; "lightyears ahead", no.

Here's a link, with pics if the innerds:
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=244200

You don't have to do anything I detail, unless you have a problem. I go through all my firearms this way, because I'd rather break things down, than break them in. Fewer problems that way. :wink:


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 Post subject: Re: Stoeger or ??? for my first autoloader?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 11:28 am 
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They are lightyears ahead of any of the guns the OP mentioned in terms of quality of raw materials, quality of manufacture, availability of service in the future, and in all likelihood, eventual lifespan.

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 Post subject: Re: Stoeger or ??? for my first autoloader?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 8:52 am 
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Skeet_Man wrote:
They are lightyears ahead of any of the guns the OP mentioned in terms of quality of raw materials, quality of manufacture, availability of service in the future, and in all likelihood, eventual lifespan.

*sigh*
So Benelli/Beretta receivers are type III anodized? (They aren't.)
Beretta/Benelli barrel walls are >1/16" thickness, and less prone to muzzle damage? (They aren't.)
Benelli/Berettas are serviced "elsewhere"- vs. Stoeger? (They aren't)

Remington is a different company, different action, and different support. There are good and bad experiences with Big Green, as with any other company.

Stoeger is a "cheap" gun, but, as with any manufacturer, there are very satisfied and very dissatisfied customers. Anyone who has had more than 1 return to Beretta Holdings with a Benelli doesn't have much positive to say. Eventually, they are taken care of, but (as with Stoeger owners, seen and serviced at the same factory) it may take awhile.

If one finds a used 11-87/1100 for <$500, it will probably need some new parts. Not a huge deal presonally, because I do my own smithing, but for some people, it may be a bit involved. "Well, they run forever...", no. They don't.

I'm not picking an argument, but you've made some grossly generalized statements, without supporting verifiable, or even anecdotal, evidence. That is not helpful in decision making, or even particularly beneficial in discussion.

Raw materials- Japanese or European steel and aluminum, for any of the makers listed.
Quality of manufacture- If one compares the Express to the Wingmaster (wich is the same as the M2000 to the 300 series) the quality is not different, but the level of finish detail is.
Support- Stoeger is a Beretta Holdings company. Beretta has been in operation sine 1492. Stoeger tooling is Beretta licensed and maintained.
Lifespan- Our individual "guesses" have equal weight. :wink:

At the OP's price-point, for a NIB gun, Stoeger is more than viable. If he is interested in used, and finds a clean specimen, absolutely, the 300s or the 11-87/1100 are fantastic guns. Objective vs. subjective assessment. :wink:


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 Post subject: Re: Stoeger or ??? for my first autoloader?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 8:59 am 
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Worc wrote:
Not on the list! Right now the best value in the auto loader market is a NIB Weatherby SAS. The gunshop out of Quincy, MI 49082 with a phone of (517)639-4537 had quite a few not too long ago. The next one I would look to would be the Beretta 390 Wal Mart which is similar to the 3901. Then I would look to the 3901.

Since you are considering used, there are quite a few other very good models you could fit in your budget. They would be the Beretta 3901,390, AL391, Browning Gold,Silver, Franchi 612,712, Weatherby SAS, Winchester SX2.


Words of great wisdom. I got a NIB Weathery SAS 12 ga 28" (shim and LOP kit, 3 chokes) in black synthetic form the Quincy Gun Shop for $325.

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 Post subject: Re: Stoeger or ??? for my first autoloader?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 11:18 am 
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"So Benelli/Beretta receivers are type III anodized? (They aren't.)
Beretta/Benelli barrel walls are >1/16" thickness, and less prone to muzzle damage? (They aren't.)
Benelli/Berettas are serviced "elsewhere"- vs. Stoeger? (They aren't)"

Not really sure what this is in reference to.

My experience in getting parts for a Stoeger (o/u) was absolutely horrendous. You call Stoeger, and they direct you to call Mann and Sons out of IL. They are the ONLY source for stoeger parts in the united states, as told to me by Stoeger. Fine. Call them, call them again, call them again, at least 10-12 times. The phone just rings and rings. Try calling in the morning, afternoon, and evening, same result. They don't have a website, so there's no way to email them. I finally gave up and told my buddy (who I was trying to get the parts for) that I couldn't get them. He was a little more persistent than me, and FINALLY got ahold of them, only to be told they didn't have what he needed, but the parts were on the boat. 6 months later, after they arrived on the boat, cleared customs, ect, he had what he needed. Contrast that to Remington, where you call one of dozens of parts suppliers, tell them what you need, and you can have it the next day if you want to pay the freight.

I would really hate to be in the middle of a hunting season, break some insignificant part, then have to spend 20 hours on a phone and wait 6 months to have my gun back up and running again.

You can find used 1187s and 1100s all day long for sub-$500 that don't need any parts, and won't for a long time. And if they do, the great thing is you can almost completely rebuilt a Remington gas gun for $50 to $75 worth of parts.

"If one compares the Express to the Wingmaster (wich is the same as the M2000 to the 300 series) the quality is not different, but the level of finish detail is."
Not even close. The M2000 is a COMPLETELY different gun than any of the 39x series of Berettas).

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Manufacturer of Custom Brass Barrel Weights for over/under, top single, and unsingle shotguns.


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 Post subject: Re: Stoeger or ??? for my first autoloader?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 3:12 pm 
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Please don't put the O/Us in with the SA's as they are two different CO. Sa's are made in turkey by a plant owned by beretta, O/U are made in Brazil
Dave


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 Post subject: Re: Stoeger or ??? for my first autoloader?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 9:29 am 
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Skeet_Man wrote:
"So Benelli/Beretta receivers are type III anodized? (They aren't.)
Beretta/Benelli barrel walls are >1/16" thickness, and less prone to muzzle damage? (They aren't.)
Benelli/Berettas are serviced "elsewhere"- vs. Stoeger? (They aren't)"

Not really sure what this is in reference to.

You reference Benelli/Beretta in comparison to Stoeger SAs. This was my answer. In short, while "durable", Benelli/Berettas are effete field guns. Triangle Shooting Sports, and several other shops make a fair bit of change turning them into serviceble high-volume guns (3 gun especially, sporting clays, etc to a lesser extent.)

Quote:
My experience in getting parts for a Stoeger (o/u) was absolutely horrendous. You call Stoeger, and they direct you to call Mann and Sons out of IL. They are the ONLY source for stoeger parts in the united states, as told to me by Stoeger. Fine. Call them, call them again, call them again, at least 10-12 times. The phone just rings and rings. Try calling in the morning, afternoon, and evening, same result. They don't have a website, so there's no way to email them. I finally gave up and told my buddy (who I was trying to get the parts for) that I couldn't get them. He was a little more persistent than me, and FINALLY got ahold of them, only to be told they didn't have what he needed, but the parts were on the boat. 6 months later, after they arrived on the boat, cleared customs, ect, he had what he needed. Contrast that to Remington, where you call one of dozens of parts suppliers, tell them what you need, and you can have it the next day if you want to pay the freight.

I would really hate to be in the middle of a hunting season, break some insignificant part, then have to spend 20 hours on a phone and wait 6 months to have my gun back up and running again.

The meat of your position. The OUs are not Beretta Holdings guns, and as Dave indicates, that is an apples/oranges comparison.

Quote:
You can find used 1187s and 1100s all day long for sub-$500 that don't need any parts, and won't for a long time. And if they do, the great thing is you can almost completely rebuilt a Remington gas gun for $50 to $75 worth of parts.
That is called performance bias. "It worked for me yesterday; it will work for me today..." It is evidentiary when one is able to evaluate both the strenths and weaknesses of a particular tool, be it Chevy/Ford, or Remmy/Stoeger. Looking at Brownells factory parts pages, it is very comparable to rebuild 100/11-87s and the M2000 for the sub-$100 range, depending on whether you need FP, extractor, shell latches, etc..

What you have told me is that you have (by inference)20-30-odd years of experience with Remington and you feel comfortable with them. You/your friend had an abyssmal experience with the Stoeger name, and it has diminished your ability to objectively examine their products, regardless of tangible manufacturing differences. Again, i'm not knocking you, but please be honest in your position.

Quote:
"If one compares the Express to the Wingmaster (wich is the same as the M2000 to the 300 series) the quality is not different, but the level of finish detail is."
Not even close. The M2000 is a COMPLETELY different gun than any of the 39x series of Berettas).

Well, yes, again the 300s are gas guns, not inertials. To fully validate my statement, I will say the Benelli M1 and M2000 differ in level of finish, but not quality. :wink:
BUT. The primary difference between the 300s and the M2000/M1/M2 is the ported barrel and bolt linkage. The receivers, trigger groups, latches, and the barrels (barring the reinforced ring at the ports) are the same.

In short, if an opinion has basis in fact, and can be substantiated, then by all means, it is worth sharing. Equally, I am not a Hi-Point fan. Wouldn't own one. I've worked on them and gagged. I do have to confess, they are fairly durable guns for what is paid, much as I hate to say it. I don't go to the Hi-Point forum and poop on their livingroom floor, as it were, because, aside from the hardcore fan-boys, most of the owners are pretty realistic about what they have. :)


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 Post subject: Re: Stoeger or ??? for my first autoloader?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 11:52 am 
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Dave- While they are mfg in different facilities by different manufacturers, they are both imported, marketed and sold by Stoeger USA, and you could go though the same company for service or parts on either.

Rob-Actually, I never brought Benelli into the mix @ all. While they may be a well built gun, I feel that they are very over-hyped for what they are, and its almost universally accepted that the inertia guns have more felt recoil than the gas guns. Benelli's also wouldn't play into the OPs original request of a $500 budget, as I have NEVER seen a Benelli autoloader for sale in that price range.

"In short, while "durable", Benelli/Berettas are effete field guns." So your saying a Stoeger will be more durable and usable in the long run than a Beretta or Benelli?? Seriously?? Take a look at any of the clay target sports. Those guys are running more rounds through their guns in a year than most hunters will shoot in a lifetime, and there's more guys out there running stock 1100/1187s and 39x series guns than the entire production run of stoeger autoloaders combined.

Stoeger over/unders (er amantino) and the autoloaders are imported, marketed, and sold by Stoeger USA, which is a subsidiary of Benelli, which is then a subsidiary of Beretta. You are not going to call different numbers for service or parts on your Stoeger o/u and on your Stoeger autoloader. You are going to go through the same ordeal I did when trying to work on a Stoeger o/u that you will on an autoloader...

"Looking at Brownells factory parts pages, it is very comparable to rebuild 100/11-87s and the M2000 for the sub-$100 range, depending on whether you need FP, extractor, shell latches, etc.."
Not sure where your getting your info on the M2000 parts, my Brownells book lists no parts for Stoeger shotguns. Your statement was that if you found an 1100/1187 for less than $500, it would probably need some new parts. There is absolutely no way you can justify that statement as fact. The real truth is that in all likelihood, unless you get a gun thats been ridden hard and put away wet, most 1100s or 1187s will need nothing to run properly for a considerable amount of time.

I have handled a M2000 a short time ago, when I was putting a recoil pad spacer on for him. All and all, I was impressed with the gun for what it is (in otherwords, value for the $). But a Rem 1187/Beretta 39x series gun it ain't. And a Benelli it ain't either.

"The primary difference between the 300s and the M2000/M1/M2 is the ported barrel and bolt linkage. The receivers, trigger groups, latches, and the barrels (barring the reinforced ring at the ports) are the same." Not even close. The M2000 has about as much in common with the 39x series of Berettas as a VW bug has in common with an Abrams tank.

And I don't feel like I'm pooping on anyone's living room floor. The OP is preparing on purchasing an autoloader, and has listed a number of options he was considering, I meerly gave him some additional choices to think about, and my view on those additional choices compared to those he's already listed.

Parting thought. Your out hunting, hundreds of miles away from home, and hours from the nearest certified repair center. You break a part on your gun, and you were planning on hunting for another week. But as luck has it, there are a couple gunsmiths near by that might be able to help. Now what gun do you think they'll be more likely to have parts for and the knowledge to repair, an 1187/39x series, or a stoeger?

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 Post subject: Re: Stoeger or ??? for my first autoloader?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 6:36 pm 
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Parting thought!! Do you think he could fix your P or K gun ????
Dave


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 Post subject: Re: Stoeger or ??? for my first autoloader?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 7:26 pm 
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So, I can get my hands on am 11-87 Premier for around $450 ... I havent done anything but hold it and slide the action ...

Is the Premier too fancy / too shiny to take out into the turkey woods? I think it'd be a great gun for the range and for dove, but I'm not too sure about the turkey ...

For that matter, do I need a camo finish, or will black synthetic or walnut/blued be just fine ... Thanks.

PS. Anything that I should be looking at in particular on a used 1187 ... to limit my potential future problems.

Still deciding between this 11-87 Premier, the Stoegers and the Baikal ... someone had mentioned a Weatherby SAS also, and if I can locate one, that has been added to the list. I didn't like the feel of the Beretta A3901.

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 Post subject: Re: Stoeger or ??? for my first autoloader?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 9:39 pm 
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David Clark wrote:
Parting thought!! Do you think he could fix your P or K gun ????
Dave


I doubt that most people are doing much hunting with their P or K gun, and those that shoot them for competition typically carry the parts to do their own repairs and have the knowledge to repair them themselves (at least in the case of Perazzis or Kolars, Krieghoffs are a little more difficult to do work on yourself, but worst case scenario, there will be a qualified gunsmith on the grounds at almost every major shoot you'll be at.

FNG- In your situation, I'd look for something that is matte blued, with synthetic stock and forend. This will give you the greatest versatility for the lowest price to do everything you want. Next option would be to buy the gloss blued gun and get some synthetic furniture for it aftermarket (pretty inexpensive), and you can camo-tape the metal if you decide you really need camo. If you can find a deal on a camo gun, its not going to hurt anything to have it, but you'll probably pay a premium for it.

If you can find someone who knows Remingtons, have them look at your potential purchase, but otherwise if its cosmetically in decent condition, you really can't go too wrong, if there does happen to be a problem that you can't see just by looking at it, chances are it'll be cheap and easy to fix if you do end up with something that needs work.

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Manufacturer of Custom Brass Barrel Weights for over/under, top single, and unsingle shotguns.


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 Post subject: Re: Stoeger or ??? for my first autoloader?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 9:57 pm 
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FNG- as per Skeet's remarks above, I wouldn't pay the premium for a camo finish. Black synthetic is good for a hard use gun, but if you find a blued/fine wood gun that otherwise fits your bill, the new non-glue camo tape (sticks to itself, not the gun) is a cheap way to have camo and protect the gun from chafes and dings. If the Weatherby doesn't pan out, is the latest Mossberg (930?) off your list? That's had good reviews and field reports on SGW and I would have thought it would be widely repairable in the event of issues.

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 Post subject: Re: Stoeger or ??? for my first autoloader?
PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2011 11:26 am 
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Skeet_Man wrote:
Parting thought. Your out hunting, hundreds of miles away from home, and hours from the nearest certified repair center. You break a part on your gun, and you were planning on hunting for another week. But as luck has it, there are a couple gunsmiths near by that might be able to help. Now what gun do you think they'll be more likely to have parts for and the knowledge to repair, an 1187/39x series, or a stoeger?


If you read my post on the Stoeger M2000, you would see that I note it to be an amalgam of assemblies from the 300 series, the 1201 and Benni M1. If the allegorical smith can work a 390, he can work a M2000, barring extreme ineptitude.

Most Beretta and Benelli parts will fit the M2000, but it requires familiarity with the product line. It is, however, very simple- if you look at my pics, and the diagrams for the 390, 391, M1 and 1201, it is not difficult to determine what is needed.

I continue to mention Benelli, as that is the tooling (German) that I believe the Turks received, in the licensing. Same-same. Minimal differences in dimensions prevent an excess of economically interchangeable parts between the $500 and $3000 guns. :|R

Again, looking at my tech post on the M2000, it's pretty clear that "fixing" is done with a screwdriver, punch, hammer and spare springs, for the most part, with slightly fewer parts.

I shoot my inertias. A lot. No, I don't 3 gun, but from those who do:
http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.p ... entry80792

For the casual shooter of a couple of cases a year, whichever platform trips your trigger. If you use your guns, yes there are some distinct differences. Everything done to the hot Bennis can be done to a M2000. :wink:

I'm also not big on relying on local smiths, they being of highly, ah, "variable", skill. I do have a spare FP, extractor, springs and two pins, along with a punch, stored in the stock of my 2000s. I strongly recommend any SA shooter, regardless of platform, to be familiar enough with the weapons for this basic maintenance...and to pre-plan, by buying spares. {hs# I do not believe in luck.


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 Post subject: Re: Stoeger or ??? for my first autoloader?
PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2011 3:16 pm 
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If you can find me a single part b/w the Beretta39x series and M2000 that would interchange, outside of beads, I would be absolutely amazed. These guns are COMPLETELY different, and you'd have as much likelihood of jamming 1187 parts into an m2000 as you would 390 parts.

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 Post subject: Re: Stoeger or ??? for my first autoloader?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2011 8:54 am 
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http://www.tiropratico.com/manuali-pdf/ ... 0M2000.pdf

AL390:
http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=0/si ... tail/AL390
Hammerstruts # 86, 87
Hammer # 85 (spring assy, with mod 86-87)
Trigger assy # 77-83
Bolt release/shell release 34-40 (may require some fitting)
The forearm and retaining bracket

That's 14(or 15/16) parts from the 390. If we include the Extrema, that count goes up, as these are more closely related to the Benelli M1/Beretta 1201.

M1/M2(and the 1200/1201):
http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=0/si ... t-Assembly
Complete bolt assy, minus the rat-tail
Individual parts fit from M2 to M2000 may require fitting (i.e., bolt handle shoulder, etc..)
Receiver, stock, bolt/shell release

M3:
http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=0/si ... ary-Police
Slide (#158)
Action spring (#110)
Nominally the mag tube itself- I have never had occassion to measure the pitch on the M2000 vis-a-vis the M1-M3 guns.

As noted, the M2000 is something of an amalgam. My suspicion is that this is due to the Turks being sub-contractors for the parts on the various Beretta/Benelli models, and the availability of in-country, already licensed tooling dictating, to a degree, what they would be able to legally and economically produce domestically.

There is nothing to be amazed about- these weapons are a natural industrial evolution.

With all respect Ian, you clearly are not familiar with the Beretta (Holdings) family, as a whole, and certainly not from a smithing perspective. Should I have questions on the 1100/11-87, I would defer to the greater depth of your experience with that platform.

I am in no way saying that an M2000 is the "be all-end all" of semi-auto shotguns, but I am intimately familiar with them in particular, and with inertial guns as a group. I am always open to spirited debate, but sweeping generalizations ("never", "all", "always", "any/every", "COMPLETELY") are unsubstantiated attempts to solidify a position with absolutism- generally :wink: where none exists.


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 Post subject: Re: Stoeger or ??? for my first autoloader?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2011 2:27 pm 
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Okay ...

Dick's is having a sale ... The Stoeger M2000 on sale for $399 and the 11-87 on sale for $499. I have til Sunday when the sake is over. The pre-owned 11-87 is also still available at $425. Im leaning towards the new 11-87 in black synthetic ... Any parting thoughts?

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 Post subject: Re: Stoeger or ??? for my first autoloader?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2011 2:35 pm 
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If I were in the same situation, I'd spend the little extra $ and get the NIB 1187. That way you get to put the first shell though the gun, you know exactly what the history is, you get all the factory accessories, and the factory warranty.



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