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 Post subject: Proper sight picture (the stacked beads)
PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 11:09 pm 
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How should the beads look if I do not wish to change how high the gun shoots.

In other words, whether it is a trap gun with a sloping rib designed to shoot 60/40 how should the beads be aligned if I do not want to raise the POI further but keep a 60/40 pattern in relation to the POA? I would think I would line the beads up the same if I wanted a flat shooting gun to shoot flat (at 50/50). In general, do I line the mid bead up directly behing the front bead, as when you have a total eclipse, or do I stack the front bead on top of the mid bead like a figure 8 or a snowman? (Assume a non-adjustable rib and an adjustable comb.)

I should know this by now, but I have been shooting a field gun without a mid bead.

This is all theory and in practice I guess what I should do is pattern the gun I buy to see how high it is shooting with the beads in line or stacked, but it would help to know more why I am trying out guns in order to decide what to buy.




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 Post subject: Re: Proper sight picture (the stacked beads)
PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2011 8:41 am 
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remove beads, place in drawer for when you trade the gun for something new.

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 Post subject: Re: Proper sight picture (the stacked beads)
PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2011 9:31 am 
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the old figure 8, is just something to go by, does it shoot were you look? thats what matters... i black out my white front bead on my 391PT, my eyes don't see the mid bead very good. put your cheek on the stock and look for the bird not at the barrel.
others will jump in!

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 Post subject: Re: Proper sight picture (the stacked beads)
PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2011 10:32 am 
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I think removing or blackening out the front bead is good advice and try as I may not to look at it I proably am paying attention to it even if I am not actually focusing on it.

Still, knowing how the beads should set up might make it easier for me to tell how well a gun I am trying fits.


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 Post subject: Re: Proper sight picture (the stacked beads)
PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2011 10:42 am 
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The only way to really know if it fits is by shooting it. A gun may feel great in the store and the beads line up and your POA/POI may still be off.

Yea it's not much fun for most but going to the pattern board is the only way to check and verify whats -what.IMO :D

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 Post subject: Re: Proper sight picture (the stacked beads)
PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2011 11:03 am 
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TheKlawMan wrote:
I think removing or blackening out the front bead is good advice and try as I may not to look at it I proably am paying attention to it even if I am not actually focusing on it.

Still, knowing how the beads should set up might make it easier for me to tell how well a gun I am trying fits.



o.k. close your eyes put the gun to your cheek then shoulder, open your eyes and if your lucky you'll see one bead over the other in a straight line. with cheek on stock its good to have a finger or two between your nose and thumb for LOP.

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 Post subject: Re: Proper sight picture (the stacked beads)
PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2011 11:40 am 
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OK. I think I got it and I tried googling for an explanation as well as checking Remington's fundamentals and Rolin Oswalds book. Yes, even in the store I have been checking fit wrong.

Quote:
To see if your gun fits, close your eyes, raise your gun to your face and shoulder, then open your eyes. If you see the two beads directly in line on your ventilated rib, the gun fits. But if they are off and you can see some of the rib in between, the gun doesn't fit and you should have a good gunsmith adjust the stock accordingly.


That is what Remington says in "Trap Shooting Fundamentals" and it sounds like what tigmaned says about seeing them in a straight line and Hopper calls "lined up". Rolin's book, "Stock Fitter's Bible", covers it briefly on page 134, but I won't step on his copyright and only mention that he feels the classic figure 8 used by trap shooters is over rated. I am taking that to mean that the front bead is only stacked so that it appears to rest on the top of the mid bead if you wish to raise the POI.

One thing that had me confused is what was meant by seeing one bead on top of the other; whether that meant one was stacked above the other as in a figure 8 or it meant that the mid bead was superimposed on top of the front llike a bullseye is centered on a circular target.


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 Post subject: Re: Proper sight picture (the stacked beads)
PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2011 1:08 pm 
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You're over thinking this. What they mean in the Remington book by 2 beads directly in line doesn't mean front bead obscured by mid. Rather it means lined up vertically to look something like an "8" but not necessarily exactly so. The book then mentions that having a gap between the beads as you see them means the fit needs checking.

In truth the only way to verify the 60:40 spread is to test it it on a pattern plate or pattern paper. The relationship of the beads is only a rough guide.

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 Post subject: Re: Proper sight picture (the stacked beads)
PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2011 1:47 pm 
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Got it Trickster. Actually, although I am only learning the proper use of patterning boards I am the kind of detail oriented nerd (who overthinks everything) that likes using them.


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 Post subject: Re: Proper sight picture (the stacked beads)
PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2011 2:03 pm 
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TheKlawMan wrote:
I guess what I should do is pattern the gun I buy to see how high it is shooting with the beads in line or stacked, but it would help to know more why I am trying out guns in order to decide what to buy.


This.

Get the gun to shoot where you want, then after enough practice you will use the beads to keep seeing the same site picture over and over- when you intially set up your mount.

Some shooters like the stacked beads because it is an easy check, but it really isn't necessary.

You can also swap out larger or smaller beads to give you stacked beads once you have the gun shooting where you like.

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 Post subject: Re: Proper sight picture (the stacked beads)
PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2011 2:12 pm 
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That also makes sense, XSshooter. BTW, I am waiting to see the new Browning 725 but it looks like I am getting an XS Skeet.


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 Post subject: Re: Proper sight picture (the stacked beads)
PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2011 2:16 pm 
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Klawman

You will get a range of opinion from those that like the figure8 sight pic to those that take the beads off and just shoot rib. Rollin is right saying the figure8 is over rated simply because it more important to get the gun to place shot exactly where the shooter needs it to break targets. Remember, placing shot is as much about momentum of the move and trigger timing as it is the point. For those that seem to need and or want the figure8 visual, they can always move the back bead up or down the rib to allow the "8" after the POI is set to center targets. Pay attention to bead alignment, any gap or cover in the beads visual is not important when hitting the targets.

For those of us that have purchased guns with adjustable ribs, we can set the bead sight picture to our preference and then the POI by rib to be able to center moving targets. Shooters with fixed ribs set POI by comb only and experience different perceptions of bead and rib view.

The proper POI setting has an inherent relationship to how we look down our guns or the view of the gun after we mount. Whatever that is will soon be accepted data into our human targeting solutions computer(subconscious) and look normal over time.

Maltz

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 Post subject: Re: Proper sight picture (the stacked beads)
PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2011 3:00 pm 
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Thanks Maltz. As you may recall from other questions you have answered, I am going with one gun, proabably an XS Skeet with an adjustable comb, to use for trap, skeet, and whatever.


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 Post subject: Re: Proper sight picture (the stacked beads)
PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2011 4:12 pm 
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TheKlawMan wrote:
Thanks Maltz. As you may recall from other questions you have answered, I am going with one gun, proabably an XS Skeet with an adjustable comb, to use for trap, skeet, and whatever.


Klawman....as a dedicated trapshooter, I would choose a different gun, but understand your decision. Its not a bad decision, offering more versatility for the different clay target games. Not a Browning fan either. After owning several, have respect for there reliability. I think the way the company handles warranty issues has a negitive impact on this decent mid-range frame. As well as having no after market barrels and funiture available other than from the factory. What you buy in configuration is generally what you end up with. Once you settle in and get serious on one discipline or the other, decisions get more focused.

Good luck and shoot well.....Maltz

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 Post subject: Re: Proper sight picture (the stacked beads)
PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2011 7:37 pm 
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for a guy only wanting one gun, which i have done.... a Beretta AL391 parallel Target does it for me..

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 Post subject: Re: Proper sight picture (the stacked beads)
PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2011 8:40 pm 
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tigmaned wrote:
for a guy only wanting one gun, which i have done.... a Beretta AL391 parallel Target does it for me..


The parallel target is the one Beretta a buddy and Browning fan suggests if I don't go with an XS Skeet or XS Special. This may sound dumb, but one problem I have is trying to determine if a gun fits me when I have become so used to a poorly fitting 870 Express. The intelligent thing might be to shoot something less expensive than an o/u for perhaps a year, but no one knows, at least I don't, that I will be here in a year.


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 Post subject: Re: Proper sight picture (the stacked beads)
PostPosted: Sat Oct 22, 2011 8:14 am 
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Have you considered a mid-high rib / adjustable rib gun like the Caesar Guerini?

You could adjust the poi in the fly for different games.

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 Post subject: Re: Proper sight picture (the stacked beads)
PostPosted: Sat Oct 22, 2011 12:30 pm 
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I shot three boxes through a rental CG Summit Sport (no adjustable rig) and it seemed a very nice gun, but I want a parallel stock.

Actually, the CG seemed to shoot slightly better for me than the Browning XS Skeet, as did a shooting buddies Beretta Gold E Sport, but that may be due to the fact that I have been shooting trap with a flat shooting angled stocked 870 Express for 9 months.

The Summit Impact looks ideal, but it is getting beyond the budget.


Last edited by TheKlawMan on Sat Oct 22, 2011 12:55 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Proper sight picture (the stacked beads)
PostPosted: Sat Oct 22, 2011 12:30 pm 
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Detroit shooter wrote:
Have you considered a mid-high rib / adjustable rib gun like the Caesar Guerini?

You could adjust the poi in the fly for different games.

Think of all the excuses for missing you'd have with one of those :lol: :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Proper sight picture (the stacked beads)
PostPosted: Sat Oct 22, 2011 1:05 pm 
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Trickster wrote:
Detroit shooter wrote:
Have you considered a mid-high rib / adjustable rib gun like the Caesar Guerini?

You could adjust the poi in the fly for different games.

Think of all the excuses for missing you'd have with one of those :lol: :lol:


Now that is a good selling point!




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