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 Post subject: Winchester 101 Pigeon Grade Skeet gun
PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2011 9:52 pm 
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I have the opportunity to buy this 1977 gem. It was barely used and the owner says it is in excellent condition with hardly any shots fired as it was his backup gun. It comes with a full set of Kolar tubes and has 27.5" barrels with an adjustable comb. What is the good the bad or the ugly about this model? What are your experiences on the skeet field with it, even if you have not shot one but have known some to have?

Also, what should the top tang/release lever look like on a barely used 101? I know every gun is different and some are more off centered to the right than others when new but what should a 101 look like? Anyone have any pics of this?

(I'd post photos but not sure how)

Any and all comments welcome.


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 Post subject: Re: Winchester 101 Pigeon Grade Skeet gun
PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2011 9:55 pm 
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Well made guns with absolutely tooth rattling, headache inducing recoil. Shoot the gun before you buy it... most won't buy one after having a chance to shoot one.

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 Post subject: Re: Winchester 101 Pigeon Grade Skeet gun
PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2011 10:26 pm 
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The 101s are well made guns. The 12 guages are lighter than many target guns and will recoil commensurate with that light weight. Recoil being a funtion of gun weight and shot charge - Your tube sets will take care of any weight issues. The lever should be noticably right of center. Midwest Gunworks - a site sponser can answer any questions about this gun.

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 Post subject: Re: Winchester 101 Pigeon Grade Skeet gun
PostPosted: Fri Oct 28, 2011 10:16 am 
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walleteman,

drsfmd's advice to shoot a 101 before you buy one is very good advice. Without tubes the gun is a little light and just as important are the stock dimensions Winchester chose when they designed the 101. The pitch on the stock is wrong for a lit of shooters, which can result in significant cheek slap. If you experience it, the pitch is simple and relatively easy to change.

Even if the stock on the gun that interests you is Monte Carlo in design, be sure to mount the gun with about an inch of the (probably rock-hard) recoil pad extending above your collarbone.

Weight can be put in the stock bolt hole to add weight and a barrel weight can be put on the barrels to equal the weight of the gun with tubes, if necessary and to re-balance the gun if weight is added to the butt stock.

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 Post subject: Re: Winchester 101 Pigeon Grade Skeet gun
PostPosted: Fri Oct 28, 2011 4:12 pm 
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Thanks for the replys. I should mention that the gun is a skeet version and not a field version. The owner told me that with onlt the 12ga barrels installed it weighs in at just over 8lbs and with a set of tubes installed it weighs in at just under 9lbs. I understand the the typical field version weighs in at just over 6 lbs and thats maybe why the recoil was felt more compared to others.

This morning I got the full story (on the phone ) from the owner. He said that this gun was one of the first five (all Win 101 pigeon grade) guns that Larry Kolar (inventer of Kolar tubes etc...), used to install his original Kolar tubes in. This gun was used in registered shoots for the first 3 years in about 4 or 5 shoots a year and some practice rounds then it sat in a safe until now. (Used only sparingly by his wife). I think that at 9lbs this should soak up the recoil pretty well and it does have a pachmayer pad on it which should also help. I use a Luigi Franchi AL48 for trap that most said will pound the living day lights out of me but hasn't. I think fit must be critical.
I hope that this gun will continue to work for me for the long run as that is part of the reason that I bought it, cost. The whole set delivered is half of what a new XS Skeet with Kolar/Briley tubes would be and no wait time for the tubes to be fitted.
What I am wondering about is that are there are shooters out there using this model on the skeet range? If so what are your impressions?


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 Post subject: Re: Winchester 101 Pigeon Grade Skeet gun
PostPosted: Fri Oct 28, 2011 4:50 pm 
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Shot one for years. Folks telling you the truth, kicks like hell. Have the Diamond grade in
4 barrel set. Great old guns. Changed to P gun just due to recoil, still quail hunt with it every
season. Fit and feel is great.... Midwest can help you with anything you may need,


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 Post subject: Re: Winchester 101 Pigeon Grade Skeet gun
PostPosted: Fri Oct 28, 2011 11:27 pm 
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walleyeman wrote:
What I am wondering about is that are there are shooters out there using this model on the skeet range? If so what are your impressions?


You simply don't see them on skeet fields anymore. Very, very rarely you'll see them in the hands of some old timer, and I know only one shooter under 60 who uses one. I haven't seen one in registered skeet anytime in recent memory.

A friend got a very good deal on a 20ga skeet gun a couple of years ago. He proudly brought it to the skeet field, and was forced to walk off by station 4 with a bleeding bruise under his eye... looked like he had gotten into a fistfight. The gun went right back up for sale...

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 Post subject: Re: Winchester 101 Pigeon Grade Skeet gun
PostPosted: Sat Oct 29, 2011 12:00 am 
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walleyman, I have two friends who shoot them but just for recreational skeet. I have shot both of them and never suffered any of the problems described above.

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 Post subject: Re: Winchester 101 Pigeon Grade Skeet gun
PostPosted: Sun Oct 30, 2011 11:01 am 
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Was there a particular year and or manufacturer that can be used to identify these particularly hard kicking guns?

I know that their newest model 101's are not afflicted with this issue.

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 Post subject: Re: Winchester 101 Pigeon Grade Skeet gun
PostPosted: Sun Oct 30, 2011 11:41 am 
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Given particular shells, it is the weight of the gun and its stock dimensions and how well they fit the shooter that affects felt recoil. The 101 is a bit light and has stock dimensions that do not tend to fit many shooters very well - they do not allow the best (felt-recoil reducing) shooting form to be used.

However, stock dimensions can be changed and weight can be added with the balance maintained (or changed).

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 Post subject: Re: Winchester 101 Pigeon Grade Skeet gun
PostPosted: Sun Oct 30, 2011 11:42 am 
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shogan191 wrote:
Was there a particular year and or manufacturer that can be used to identify these particularly hard kicking guns?

I know that their newest model 101's are not afflicted with this issue.


The newly mfg 101s are similar to the original 101s in name only. Otherwise, they are a COMPLETELY different gun, and have absolutely nothing else in common.

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 Post subject: Re: Winchester 101 Pigeon Grade Skeet gun
PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2011 10:54 am 
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I shot a little 101 skeet this past Friday - older gun, don't know how old.
26" bbls with Briley tubes in 28 gauge.
I ran the round ( of course I did it wasn't my gun :roll: ) but felt a lot of recoil - we're talking 28 gauge here folks.
But in all fairness as light as the gun was it handled very nicely.

Now my brother owns a beautiful pigeon grade 101 (12 gauge 28" bbls) which you couldn't pay me to shoot.
It kicks like a wayward mule. :shock: :(


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 Post subject: Re: Winchester 101 Pigeon Grade Skeet gun
PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2011 1:49 pm 
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Were these 101's the skeet versions (heavier) or were they the lighter field versions? The reason I ask is because the 101 that I am interested in has a skeet stock and weighs 8lbs without tubes and close to 9lbs with the tubes installed. I don't think its a light weight by any means.


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 Post subject: Re: Winchester 101 Pigeon Grade Skeet gun
PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2011 2:10 pm 
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The field versions were lighter, but the heavier skeet version doesn't stop the brutal recoil. 8lbs by the way is NOT heavy for a proper skeet gun. It's down around the lightest that most serious skeet shooters would even consider.

You're being told by all here to steer clear of the gun, you obviously aren't listening to that and trying to find some way to justify buying the gun. I don't know why you would WANT to do that to yourself, but go for it...

It's funny... almost all the 101's out there are in high condition. Did you ever wonder why? It's because there are very, very few shooters who can tolerate the recoil for long enough to put any wear on the gun. I would venture a guess that 101's have caused more flinching problems than any other gun out there.

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 Post subject: Re: Winchester 101 Pigeon Grade Skeet gun
PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2011 10:30 pm 
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drsfmd wrote:
The field versions were lighter, but the heavier skeet version doesn't stop the brutal recoil. 8lbs by the way is NOT heavy for a proper skeet gun. It's down around the lightest that most serious skeet shooters would even consider.

You're being told by all here to steer clear of the gun, you obviously aren't listening to that and trying to find some way to justify buying the gun. I don't know why you would WANT to do that to yourself, but go for it...

It's funny... almost all the 101's out there are in high condition. Did you ever wonder why? It's because there are very, very few shooters who can tolerate the recoil for long enough to put any wear on the gun. I would venture a guess that 101's have caused more flinching problems than any other gun out there.


I am sorry that I have given you this impression. My only goal here is to truely get the right idea about the overall performance of this gun. it is not to toot my own horn in any way. Just to give you an idea about what I am facing here is that I have numerous people on both sides of the fence. Many are saying that the recoil will be immense while others are saying that it is no different than any other O/U shotgun (with proper fit). I even have a member saying that it is a delight to shoot and that his wife also shoots the 101 for skeet and she laughed when he told her about the posts of heavy recoil on that gun. I just want to get this right. It is really confusing.

I did some more research about weight of guns being offered by the big factories and what I could find was that the gun are in that high 7lbs range to low 8 lbs range from the factory. This was taken from the Browning XS Skeet and Ceasar Guernni Summit Impact. So, I am not sure what you mean by the weight comment. I am just a guy that started shooting skeet for the first time this past July and has about 20 rounds under my belt and is looking for a decent gun to start the registered shoot thing. (I entered my first tourny as a non-registered participant and did really well, even beat some of the more seasoned and more experienced shooters.)

I appreciate all opinions and thoughts and am just trying to weigh what will work for me. If money was no problem then I already have a gleaming XS Skeet with my name on it, but , that is not to be, at least for now.

So, where does that leave me now? I do not know, but I am sorry for any confusion as to my intent, for that I appologize.


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 Post subject: Re: Winchester 101 Pigeon Grade Skeet gun
PostPosted: Tue Nov 01, 2011 10:21 am 
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I shoot a stock Winchester 101 Pigeon Grade with Winchokes. This gun is my main sporting clays gun and I put many 1000's of rounds through it each year. The gun is very well made and handles great. I have no problem with recoil.

My girlfriend shoots a 20ga version of the same gun. She is 5'7" and weighs 130 lbs. She LOVES her gun. She puts between 1000 and 2000 rounds through it each year. She has no problem with recoil.

Last month I introduced the 11-year-old son of a long-time friend to shotgun shooting. This boy is small for his age. I used my girlfriend's 101 since it was the gun closest to fitting him (though, it was still way too big for him). He put about 100 rounds through the gun. He used light target loads. This first time shooter's comment after the shooting was done was an enthusiastic "that was fun!" He was disappointed we had run out of ammo because he wanted to keep shooting. If an 11-year-old new shooter weighing 100 lbs shooting a gun which is too big for him doesn't find the recoil to be a problem, how bad can it really be?

I am truly shocked that anyone would complain about the recoil of these guns. I would say that if a 130 lb woman or a 100 lb boy don't have a problem with the recoil of a Winchester 101, why would a presumably larger and stronger man have a problem? I hardly ever see Browning Superposeds on the skeet fields anymore, but that is not due to any real or perceived recoil problem. With all due respect to the many experienced shooters here, some of the comments appear to me to border on over-heated rhetoric.

Felt recoil is subjective, so to each his own, I guess.

--twofer


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 Post subject: Re: Winchester 101 Pigeon Grade Skeet gun
PostPosted: Tue Nov 01, 2011 12:02 pm 
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Rollin Oswald wrote:
Given particular shells, it is the weight of the gun and its stock dimensions and how well they fit the shooter that affects felt recoil. The 101 is a bit light and has stock dimensions that do not tend to fit many shooters very well - they do not allow the best (felt-recoil reducing) shooting form to be used.

However, stock dimensions can be changed and weight can be added with the balance maintained (or changed).


Yes Twofer therefore we have the above post.
By the way if you don't know who Rollin is you can Google him. {hs#


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 Post subject: Re: Winchester 101 Pigeon Grade Skeet gun
PostPosted: Tue Nov 01, 2011 12:09 pm 
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Buckshot Bob - I know who Mr. Oswald is. I own and have read both of his books on shotgun fitting. He knows his stuff and I highly respect him, and I wouldn't consider his response to be "over-heated rhetoric." Obvioulsy his comments about felt recoil being related to gun fit are 100% accurate.

I was responding to the over-the-top hyperbole, which, I am afraid, misleads those who have no experience shooting a Winchester 101 if such comments are not put in perspective.

--shinbone


Last edited by Twofer on Tue Nov 01, 2011 2:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Winchester 101 Pigeon Grade Skeet gun
PostPosted: Tue Nov 01, 2011 12:51 pm 
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Twofer wrote:
Buckshot Bob - I know who Mr. Oswald is. I own and have read both of his books on shotgun fitting. He knows his stuff and I highly respect him, and I wouldn't consider his response to be "over-heated rhetoric." Obvioulsy his comments about felt recoil being related to gun fit are 100% accurate.

I was responding to the over-the-top hyperbole, which, I am afraid, misleads those who have no experience shooting a Winchester 101 if not put in perspective.

--shinbone


Aaaalrighty then, as long as we're all clear. :D :D


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 Post subject: Re: Winchester 101 Pigeon Grade Skeet gun
PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2011 6:31 pm 
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Really did not know my 101 kicked until I bought a pair of P guns that fit. Then I
and only then I knew the difference. A bunch..... this is not rhetoric. 101 is a great gun,
but out of the box with no personal fitting they kick......but that just to me.


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