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 Post subject: Did SAE Import Grulla?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 10:38 pm 
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Hi, guys. First post, and I know nothing about SxS guns and even less about Spanish doubles.
But, there is a 12ga SxS at my locL shop with SAE import stamp and Made In Spain on the barrels. No other manufacturer on the outside, of course. But on the inside, I'm pretty sure there us the Grulla crane stamp. Could it be?
I'm going back to look at it again tomorrow, and if they will let me, I'll snap some pics.
I do find it interesting that Grulla has a model 209-H, and SAE imported a model 209E. Anyone know who was the maker of the 209E?
Thanks.


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 Post subject: Re: Did SAE Import Grulla?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 10:56 pm 
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Does it look like this?

http://www.gunsinternational.com/Grulla ... =100211649

And there is this one

http://www.gunsinternational.com/Grulla ... =100125581

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 Post subject: Re: Did SAE Import Grulla?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2012 9:09 am 
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I don't remember specifics. I'll try to get some pics.


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 Post subject: Re: Did SAE Import Grulla?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2012 12:09 pm 
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Location: St Anthony, North Dakota
Hello, the 209E was made by Grulla. It was their entry level sidelock. No engraving to speak of. Very plain looking action and the wood was ho-hum.

The 209H was made after Grulla decided to down size their various models and make only a few models rather than the several they had been making. The action is based on the Holland & Holland action and has a 100% engraved action and much better wood.

As it happens, I have a 16ga 209H up for sale, here's my plug and ad:

http://www.gunsinternational.com/Grulla ... =100223539

It's also on GB.

All the best!

Greg


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 Post subject: Re: Did SAE Import Grulla?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2012 1:34 pm 
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Image
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There she is, guys. Can anyone guesstimate a fair price? 12ga, 2 3/4 or 3". 28" barrels.
Thanks for your help.

Brian


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 Post subject: Re: Did SAE Import Grulla?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2012 1:40 pm 
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This can get a little complicated.

Guns with the trademark image of the crane, and the name 'GRULLA' on the water table, were made by both Union Armera and Grulla Aramas. Union Armera is the original company, and it changed its name to Grulla. Guns made by Union Armera will usually have the name ' Union Armera' on the top of the barrels and guns made by Grulla will usually have that name of the top of the barrels. When Union Armera and Grulla

Guns made by either Union Armera or Grulla Aramas for a reseller/retailer will usually have the name of the retailer on the top of the barrels, and not have either Union Armera or Grulla Aramas marked on the top of the barrels.

When it comes to Spanish shotguns, model names can be more confusing than revealing. The Grulla base model may be had in different configurations, with different features. As an example, a model 209E is likely an ejector gun, while a plain model '209' would be an extractor gun.

Bottom line: if the gun has the image of the crane, or the name 'GRULLA' on the water table, it was made by Union Armera or Grulla Aramas. Check the proof year against the year of the company name change to figure out what the company was called when the gun was made.

Regarding whether SAE imported Grulla guns, I don't see why not – just about everybody has imported Grulla guns at some point in time :roll:

docost99 wrote:
Hi, guys. First post, and I know nothing about SxS guns and even less about Spanish doubles.
But, there is a 12ga SxS at my locL shop with SAE import stamp and Made In Spain on the barrels. No other manufacturer on the outside, of course. But on the inside, I'm pretty sure there us the Grulla crane stamp. Could it be?
I'm going back to look at it again tomorrow, and if they will let me, I'll snap some pics.
I do find it interesting that Grulla has a model 209-H, and SAE imported a model 209E. Anyone know who was the maker of the 209E?
Thanks.

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 Post subject: Re: Did SAE Import Grulla?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2012 1:46 pm 
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Good pics!

Looks to me to be a Union Armera gun. I'd believe a model 209 (or a model 203, 204, or 205). It's an extractor gun. Pretty gun. For me, top dollar on that gun would be in the $500 - $600 range.

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 Post subject: Re: Did SAE Import Grulla?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2012 1:49 pm 
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As an aside, anyone else notice the missing second, or definitive, proof?

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 Post subject: Re: Did SAE Import Grulla?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2012 2:50 pm 
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I don't know about missing stamps, but is the F.2 Stamp mean 1986? What is the 12-76?
Greg(gjw), do these pics fit with what you know about the 209E.
Thank you, Kyrie, for the information.


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 Post subject: Re: Did SAE Import Grulla?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2012 3:58 pm 
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Quote:
What is the 12-76?
The 12 is the gauge and the 76 is the barrel length in
centimeters..

Quote:
but is the F.2 Stamp mean 1986?
That's correct..

http://www.9mmlargo.com/year_codes.htm

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 Post subject: Re: Did SAE Import Grulla?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2012 6:06 pm 
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http://www.chuckhawks.com/grulla_shotguns.htm
I found this article that says that UA became Grulla in 1983. I can't find anything that shows me that Grulla lowered the quality or contracted these out to a lower price point for import by SAE yet. But I'm looking.


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 Post subject: Re: Did SAE Import Grulla?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2012 7:20 pm 
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docost99 wrote:
I don't know about missing stamps, but is the F.2 Stamp mean 1986? What is the 12-76?
Greg(gjw), do these pics fit with what you know about the 209E.
Thank you, Kyrie, for the information.


You're very welcome {hs#

Yes sir, a proof date code of F*2 indicates proof in 1986. The '12-76' stamp indicates it is chambered for 12 gauge shell of up to 76 mm (3 inch). FWIW, the pictures show a box lock gun – the 209 is a sidelock. This gun looks more like a model 203, with special engraving.

The proof year of 1986, the presence of the crane/Grulla maker's code, and the absence of the maker's code 'UA' (used on Union Armera guns) all tend to indicate this gun was made after the name change from Union Armera to Grulla – and was reported to have stopped making box lock guns.

That suggests (to me, anyway) that the name change didn't stop the underlying company from making whatever kind of shotgun a customer ordered.

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 Post subject: Re: Did SAE Import Grulla?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2012 7:51 pm 
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Truth be told, I had been looking at this double at the shop for a few weeks thinking that I liked its looks. I had taken it down and noticed the "strange" bird stamp on both the frame and barrels. Didn't think anything of it until I saw Greg's listing of the Grulla and saw the bird stamp again, and the price he is asking. That got me thinking that maybe the shop didn't know what they had in that Spanish gun with the price they have on it. I got more interested, but wasn't sure I had seen the same bird stamp. Well, its the same, but apparently this boxlock isn't worth the same as the sidelock Greg has listed. In my BBGV, I can't seem to find the UA guns and the Model 203, 204, 205, 206. I saw Greg had commented on a UA Boxlock owned by RGSER on the Upland Talk BB a few years back, but the pictures have been deleted. Where can I read more about the UA boxlocks?
Can you tell me about the quality? In your collective opinion, is it a $500-600 gun?
And what about the missing proof? Waiting for more guessers? :D


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 Post subject: Re: Did SAE Import Grulla?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2012 8:55 pm 
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With box lock Vs, side lock we're getting back into social value versus gun value. Both kinds of guns are good, durable designs and have equal gun value. Side lock guns are viewed as having more class (i.e. higher social value) and command higher prices because of that.

The missing proof stamp is no big deal, and is common on guns made for export to the US. That's actually one of the clues that this gun was made for some retailer here in the US.

If I'd come across this gun in a gun shop and wanted it, I'd have offered them $350 to see if they would bite, or at least nibble. If they didn't cave, I'd up my offer to $400 about a month later. And so on, until they either sold me the gun or I lost interest (or spent the money on another gun!).

This isn't a 'sleeper', worth big bucks. It's just a nice box lock gun made by a Spanish gun maker with an excellent reputation. If you want a gun to hunt with or break clays, that's a good choice. If you're looking to make an investment, keep looking :)

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 Post subject: Re: Did SAE Import Grulla?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 5:16 pm 
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Well put, Kyrie.

If you don't mind, I'll comment on the engraving from my limited experience. I don't know when or if they ever did roll engraving on their guns, but the image of the left side of the action gives me pause. The rose over the pin is not centered and the rest of the scroll engraving is not parallel with the water table or the bottom of the action giving it an "askew" appearance. Either it was roll engraved and slightly off, or the engraving was done by someone other than a master.

Aside from that, the condition looks to be very good. There is something going on at the wood-metal junction on the left side of the action but it is hard to tell from the picture.

If it were me, the engraving being off would drive me nuts and I'd never be happy with the gun, no matter how much I paid for it (unless it had my dream dimensions and caused my clays scores to double ;)).

MD

There is certainly something to be said for being able to handle a gun in person, but Spanish boxlocks come and go on GB regularly, and you may be able to find better example in the same price range.

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 Post subject: Re: Did SAE Import Grulla?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 6:25 pm 
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Ok, guys. I believe you have talked me out of it. He's pretty firm at $500 and I wasn't truely sold on a 12ga anyway. And while it does come up for me pretty well, my heart isn't screaming "I gotta have it!".
But it did open the doors into Spanish Ladies. I wish I could find a copy of Wielands book to read. Tough to justify the cost of buying one. Interesting stuff, though!
Are a lot of Spanish doubles considered "guild" guns, similar to those from the continent?
Again, thanks for all the help and information.


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 Post subject: Re: Did SAE Import Grulla?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 7:04 pm 
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Spanish guild guns would be rare as there is almost always a maker's mark on the watertable and or the barrel flats.

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 Post subject: Re: Did SAE Import Grulla?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 7:52 pm 
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docost99 wrote:
Ok, guys. I believe you have talked me out of it. He's pretty firm at $500 and I wasn't truely sold on a 12ga anyway. And while it does come up for me pretty well, my heart isn't screaming "I gotta have it!".
But it did open the doors into Spanish Ladies. I wish I could find a copy of Wielands book to read. Tough to justify the cost of buying one. Interesting stuff, though!
Are a lot of Spanish doubles considered "guild" guns, similar to those from the continent?
Again, thanks for all the help and information.


Spanish gun makers never followed the guild structure that was common in Germany, so there really isn't any such thing as a Spanish guild gun. In Spain, each gun has a maker and the maker has one or more "maker's marks" that is/are his identifying mark. Here is a partial list:

http://personales.jet.es/rafa/b_punzone ... _lisa.html

Spanish guns tend to be each built for a specific purpose (rather like golf clubs). A typical light game gun would be a six to six and a half pound 12 gauge. This type of gun is built to be carried much and shot little (upland game hunting). A medium game gun would be a 12 gauge that weighed at about seven pounds, had a triple bite lock up, and possibly side clips. These are guns made to be shot much and carried little (think driven game). And then there are competition guns. These would be 12 gauge guns weighing in at well over seven pounds (I have a 16 gauge competition gun that weighs eight pounds). As the name suggests, these guns were made for things like live pigeon shooting where the gun isn't carried at all, and will be used to shoot thousands (and tens of thousands) of shells a year.

All of this is by way of a 'heads up'. If you should pursue a Spanish shotgun keep all this in mind and try to match the gun you buy against the purpose you are buying it for. If you seriously get the Spanish shotgun bug, you will find good company and much information over on the Spanish Shotgun Forum on Yahoo (check my signature).

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 Post subject: Re: Did SAE Import Grulla?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 8:03 pm 
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Terry's book is available in Kindle form - I bought it and have been very happy with it. If you have a reader, that's the way to go given current market prices for the hardback version.

MD

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 Post subject: Re: Did SAE Import Grulla?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 8:08 pm 
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My use would be the first example...grouse. That's why I was thinking lighter weight 20ga. I like how this one looks, and knowing that it's not a high dollar double, I'd carry it through the brush without worrying about it. We'll see in a month if he'll come down from his $500 price tag.
I'd like to know what it weighs. I'll stop and see if he has a scale.
I'll keep an eye here and on the "good gun" thread. Shoot me a heads up if you find a "This would be a good one for what he wants it for" gun. I'm watching the auction sites, too.
MD, I'm not that high tech! :D


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