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 Post subject: Very Old Single Barrel Bolt Action Shotgun.
PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2012 2:42 am 
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Joined: Sun Feb 05, 2012 2:19 am
Posts: 7
Hi all

Im new to this fourm but have a question on a single barrel shottie i have just brought.

It is fairly old , and in very worn condition , the barrel is about stuffed , however i cant ID it! It has the markings of the manufacture on it , but it is so worn it is hard to make out!

It apears that it says ******* and Co ltd ( cant make this bit out ) on the barrel , along with 12-70 indicating the gauge etc of the gun. it also says Made in ****** and i cant make that out either! Ive attached a coupple of picks tht im hoping someone will be able to id it for me , and if its worth anything.

I suspect its a hunk of junk , and not worth a penny but before i attack it i would like to knw!

Thanks all for looking look forward to your replys!

Craig.


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 Post subject: Re: Very Old Single Barrel Bolt Action Shotgun.
PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2012 2:49 am 
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Joined: Sun Feb 05, 2012 2:19 am
Posts: 7
I all im trying to add a photo but somehow i not sure how too??? anyone help?


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 Post subject: Re: Very Old Single Barrel Bolt Action Shotgun.
PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2012 10:18 am 
Presentation Grade

Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2009 2:37 pm
Posts: 979
There may be other ways but the only way I could post pics on this site is to use photobucket as a host. Download your pics to photobucket. Then hold the cursor over the image you want and a drop down menu will appear. Click on the IMG prompt and it will say copied. Then paste in your post here.


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 Post subject: Re: Very Old Single Barrel Bolt Action Shotgun.
PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2012 11:07 am 
Crown Grade

Joined: Mon Jul 05, 2010 7:16 pm
Posts: 2866
Location: New England
[along with 12-70 indicating the gauge etc of the gun.]

The fact that the chamber length is marked metrically (70mm), ILO decimally (2-3/4") would seem to indicate European manufacture/proof.

I would recommend inspecting the metal areas hidden by the wooden stock for prookmarks which shouldn't be worn off, and which might help determine it's origin further.

.

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["CriscoKid", alias: Fat in the Can]


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 Post subject: Re: Very Old Single Barrel Bolt Action Shotgun.
PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2012 3:59 pm 
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Joined: Sun Feb 05, 2012 2:19 am
Posts: 7
Hi all Again i have added 2x photos to the "gallary" under the Misc. If anyone could have a lookie and purhaps shed a bit more light that would be great! The photos are not the best but gives u a little idea! Cheers


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 Post subject: Re: Very Old Single Barrel Bolt Action Shotgun.
PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2012 4:06 pm 
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Joined: Sun Feb 05, 2012 2:19 am
Posts: 7
http://s1155.photobucket.com/albums/p552/bagpipeman/

thats a link if it helps???


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 Post subject: Re: Very Old Single Barrel Bolt Action Shotgun.
PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2012 5:01 pm 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2011 6:02 pm
Posts: 124
What you've got is an old European black powder cartridge military rifle civilianised into a shotgun, probably in Belgium, probably around the end of the 19th century. A lot of these things were made; I believe the idea was to produce cheap shotguns for sale in Africa.

From what I can make out from the photo, the original rifle was a French Gras, or something very similar, like a Chassepot (originally a needle-fire; obsolete ammunition system from the era of the Franco-Prussian war)

Typically, the conversion involved brazing a chunk onto the end of the bolt, replacing the bolt handle, fitting a new barrel and a new stock. Why anyone would bother, I don't know, but they did.

Unless there's a collectors' market for these things where you live, I'd have thought its main value is as a source of spares for renovating/repairing not-messed-around-with Gras rifles. I used the stock off a similar piece to replace the stock of a Gras that had been eaten away into dust by woodworm; the rifle action dropped in without any need for fitting.


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 Post subject: Re: Very Old Single Barrel Bolt Action Shotgun.
PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2012 5:28 pm 
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Joined: Sun Feb 05, 2012 2:19 am
Posts: 7
Hi there

Thanks for your help i have done a bit of reasearch on the net and it appears that you maybe correct in saying that. The barrel is pretty stuffed rusty etc

Do you think that this originally started out as a rifle , and then was hacked into a 12ga shotgun for civilan use?

Is it worth anything to a collecter? it is still in "fireable" order , but am a little hesatant to pull the trigger on a live round? Also was this a good gun in its time? the action is suprisinly very tight with the bolt closed , it is of corse single shot

Cheers
Craig


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 Post subject: Re: Very Old Single Barrel Bolt Action Shotgun.
PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2012 11:01 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Thu Nov 27, 2008 2:26 pm
Posts: 2473
A number of bolt action military rifle to shotgun "conversions" required the removal of the bolt locking lugs in order to accommodate the larger 12 gauge barrel leaving the bolt handle as the sole locking device. Before test firing the gun, assure that all premium payments on your life insurance are up to date.

DF

Montani Semper Liberi


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 Post subject: Re: Very Old Single Barrel Bolt Action Shotgun.
PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2012 6:59 pm 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2011 6:02 pm
Posts: 124
doppelflinten wrote:
A number of bolt action military rifle to shotgun "conversions" required the removal of the bolt locking lugs in order to accommodate the larger 12 gauge barrel leaving the bolt handle as the sole locking device. Before test firing the gun, assure that all premium payments on your life insurance are up to date.



The Gras, Chassepot, Mauser M71, Kropatchek, Beaumont and other military rifles of that era didn't have bolt locking lugs. The lug at the base of the bolt handle was the only locking point. For black powder cartridge pressures, that was all that was needed.

Since this gun bears a 12 bore proof mark, it must at some stage have undergone proof testing and survived, which suggests that (in good condition) the bolt-handle-lug lockup is inherently strong enough to handle 12ga pressures. Which is no surprise; Webley 410 bolt-actions made well into the smokeless powder era didn't have locking lugs either. You're talking 8-10,000 psi for a typical 12ga, as opposed to 45-50,000 psi or thereabouts for smokeless-era military bolt-actions.

I'd be more concerned about headspace. On the Chassepot conversions I've seen, the bolt head modification was pretty agricultural; also, bolt heads on ancient and neglected guns are often corroded and pitted.

The gun may well be fireable, but the best way to find out would involve some form of bench to clamp it down on, at least forty feet of string, and if at all possible a big fat tree to hide behind when the gun goes off.


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 Post subject: Re: Very Old Single Barrel Bolt Action Shotgun.
PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 4:36 am 
Utility Grade

Joined: Sun Feb 05, 2012 2:19 am
Posts: 7
Hi all Again.

Well it got the better of me and i had to at least put a shot away thru it.

Didnt blow up! anyhow i took the shottie to a local gunsmith who was very interested in it and thinks it may well be a collectors article.

I cant make out the manufactures name on the barrel but it does say something like ****** & Co.
Tested
Made in Belgium ( well at least thats what i THINK it says )

The barrel is quite considerably larger than what you would expect a 12 gauge to be , and this particular gun smith thorght That purhaps it was made as some sort of "punt Gun" , but in 12 Gauge.

I would really like more info on it if anyone has any. Every part of the gun has some kind of markings , but its really unique as cant find anymore of the same!


Craig


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 Post subject: Re: Very Old Single Barrel Bolt Action Shotgun.
PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 7:28 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Mon Jul 05, 2010 7:16 pm
Posts: 2866
Location: New England
FWIW, the gun appears to be an 1871 Mauser/Gewehr 1871 - originally chambered in 11.15mm x 60mm (.43 Mauser).

Image

OP's gun:

Image

.

_________________
["CriscoKid", alias: Fat in the Can]


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 Post subject: Re: Very Old Single Barrel Bolt Action Shotgun.
PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2012 1:20 pm 
Utility Grade

Joined: Sun Feb 05, 2012 2:19 am
Posts: 7
Hi

I would have a really good educated guess and say almost with 100% that that shotgun i have is in fact an old 1871 Mauser.

Did Mauser make 12 bore shotguns? or has this been hacked into a 12 bore after the 11.15x60 ammo was out?.

Also it does bear the mark of blackpowder , the oval with ELG and the crown above meaning tested for blackpowder.

Strange thing is on the top of the barrel it has anoher oval , with 12-70 written in it , but from what i can understand blackpowder was well n truly out of fassion when 70mm cartridges arround.

Real Confused!

Craig


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