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 Post subject: Winchester Super X1
PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2012 9:26 pm 
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I bought a Super X1 around Thanksgiving and have shot it maybe ten times, but while reading up on it on these forums everyone always says to make sure to have extra o rings. From what I understand they are plastic o rings? After looking through my gun I didn't find any o rings. Is it possible I dont have any in there? Would it still function fine? If anybody has any pictures of where the orings are located that would be super. Thanks.

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 Post subject: Re: Winchester Super X1
PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2012 10:56 pm 
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See: http://www.midwestgunworks.com/page/mgwi/ctgy/winchester-superx for the schematic.

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 Post subject: Re: Winchester Super X1
PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 8:12 am 
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Some SX-1's will fire without an o-ring and some won't. Actually you see a lot of SX-1's without the front gas seal as well. In front of the gas piston assembly you should have a small metal gas seal ring and the o-ring.
Go over to the "I love my Winchester" Forum. There is a sticky at the top with great pictures and explanations of assembly and care of your gun.

Nu Line guns has many parts for your gun and are great to deal with over the phone. They have Viton o-rings for $2.50 and many other parts. You can buy o-rings for under $1.00 apiece at a full service hardware. IIRC the Viton number is #21. Check me on that.

You should take your gun apart and check the bolt buffer as well. Many are worn or missing and if so should be replaced before any more shooting.

Enjoy your new gun it is a great model.

http://www.nulineguns.com

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 Post subject: Re: Winchester Super X1
PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 8:23 am 
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Viton 021 is correct.
As noted, they sit in the gas seal (it's cupped metal ring) right atop the gas tube, which is visible once you remove your forearm cap and forearm. Sometimes the seal and O-ring stay right on the assembly, so maybe you're not seeing them.
Also as noted, see the pictorial sticky on top of the "I love my Winchester" forum. Good stuff.
Nuline or Stu Wright can provide you with seal and rings, should you need both. Heck, if you just want a few extra O-rings, drop me a pm, and I'll snail mail you a few.

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 Post subject: Re: Winchester Super X1
PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 11:13 am 
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YOU NEED A NEW BUFFER!!!

Every SX1 I own has needed a new $20 recoil buffer in order to keep the bolt from pounding the back of the receiver. It's easy to put in. You have to buy a buffer, take off the stock, drop the trigger group, and locate the old buffer (if it's even there). After punching out the old buffer from the rear, take a long dowel rod and gently tap a new buffer in the hole, from the front, until you see that it's fully seated.

All of the original recoil buffers on SX1's were made of some kind of hard rubber that by now, over 30 years out, have hardened and dry rotted and are going to shatter. The first SX1 I owned about ten years ago shattered it's old recoil buffer on the eighth shot and I didn't know about this. I do by now.

An SX1 is the finest gas operated semi automatic target shotgun ever built in the entire history of the world. Seriously. Whatever you paid for it, it was too cheap.

Part of my SX1's will shoot without the O ring up front, and part of them won't. Just buy one. A Remington 1100 O ring is supposed to fit, but while you are on the phone with Wright's buying the recoil buffer, buy an O ring along with it.


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 Post subject: Re: Winchester Super X1
PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 11:59 am 
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O-rings aren't rocket science. SX-1, 1100, 11-87, all use the same size. Order here http://www.oringsandmore.com/servlet/th ... ize/Detail and have a lifetime supply plus some for your friends. Mark

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 Post subject: Re: Winchester Super X1
PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 7:46 pm 
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I have to say that o-ring life is a very over thought topic. I own a Remington Sportsman 12 (1100), built in 1985 or '86, with the original o-ring still in good shape. I admit it has been fired very little, but still they last a long time.

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 Post subject: Re: Winchester Super X1
PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 8:44 pm 
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Neanderthal wrote:
I have to say that o-ring life is a very over thought topic. I own a Remington Sportsman 12 (1100), built in 1985 or '86, with the original o-ring still in good shape. I admit it has been fired very little, but still they last a long time.


Yep. Ordered a pack of 50 from an online hardware store. Have given away far, far more than I've used.
I think it's a good idea to throw a new one on a used SX-1, if for no other reason than you don't know how the previous owner was about caring for a gun's internals. And, even at gun shop prices, they're a dollar part.
So, with my big bag of rings, if I see a nick in one of mine, I just replace it. But even I admit that's just being finicky. A nicely tuned SX-1 is a shell-eating gun.

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 Post subject: Re: Winchester Super X1
PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2012 7:48 am 
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Do replace the buffer. I bought a barely-used X1 and the original buffer came apart in chunks the first time I took the gun apart.

http://www.wrightsgunsmiths.com/parts.htm


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 Post subject: Re: Winchester Super X1
PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2012 12:36 pm 
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NHrural wrote:
Do replace the buffer. I bought a barely-used X1 and the original buffer came apart in chunks the first time I took the gun apart.

http://www.wrightsgunsmiths.com/parts.htm



Most certainly. All four of mine have the Wright's buffer.

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 Post subject: Re: Winchester Super X1
PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2012 3:57 pm 
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I haven't replaced my buffer yet, but it is starting to finally give way after 40 years. Here's a question for you SX1 owners though, when my SX1 was about 10 years old, the bottom of the recoil spring follower, (where the back of the bolt rests to move into the stock upon firing), had worn down so the bolt arm actually dropped out of the follower. Only happened once as I knew something was wrong when the shell didn't eject and it kicked pretty good. I couldn't find a replacement right away, so I took the old one out and turned it over and used it until that side wore out and then installed a new one. Likely, I'll never need another as I don't shoot the gun more than once or twice a year at trap for nostalgia anymore. It's a bit of a job to replace as you have to pull the stock, and then align the roll pin that holds the follower in the slot on the recoil spring sleeve and pound it out, but if i can do it, it can't be too tough.
Anyone else have this happen?
Also, my bolt lever is loose enough that it will pop out sometimes, so I just keep it in my pocket as I've lost one over the years. Is the spring that holds the detente ball in place just old and replaceable or do I live with it?


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 Post subject: Re: Winchester Super X1
PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2012 4:26 pm 
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I just replaced the recoil spring and follower on my SX-1. The previous one had been rotated once already. I did drill a hole in the recoil spring tube to hold the spring back while installing the new one. Like most things, the first time doing it was the most difficult. Haven't had an issue with the bolt handle, so don't know the answer to that. Mark

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 Post subject: Re: Winchester Super X1
PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2012 4:49 pm 
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SuperXOne wrote:
YOU NEED A NEW BUFFER!!!
He's right!

SuperXOne wrote:
An SX1 is the finest gas operated semi automatic target shotgun ever built in the entire history of the world. Seriously.
He's wrong! WAY wrong. SOOOO wrong I'd say he's not really serious, but he did say "seriously."

Somehow, fanboys and cultists have made the SX1 the most hyped-up failure in the history of semi-auto's. The Remington 1100 was cheap, and better, while the Browning Auto-5 was expensive, and better. Both peers of the SX1 sold millions of guns over decades while the SX1 was here and gone in the relative blink of an eye.

SuperXOne wrote:
Part of my SX1's will shoot without the O ring up front, and part of them won't...
That's a real piece of precision engineering you've got there :)

(Yes, I owned one, and shot it, and really wanted to make it work for me, but it didn't. The happiest the gun ever made me was when I accepted its shortcomings and sold it for a profit.)


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 Post subject: Re: Winchester Super X1
PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2012 6:39 pm 
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Try shooting an 1100 without a o-ring.

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 Post subject: Re: Winchester Super X1
PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2012 8:25 pm 
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"Somehow, fanboys and cultists have made the SX1 the most hyped-up failure in the history of semi-auto's."

Absolutely correct. Please post any SX-1s you see for sale in the "I Love My Winchester" forums so the fan boys and cultists can take them out of circulation.

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 Post subject: Re: Winchester Super X1
PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2012 9:39 pm 
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Quote:
my bolt lever is loose enough that it will pop out sometimes,


Nuline makes an operating handle that stays in better than the
original. There are quite a few SX1s that have trouble keeping
their operating handle. The special one from Nuline fits quite
tight, and you might need pliers to extract it.

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 Post subject: Re: Winchester Super X1
PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2012 2:11 am 
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I buy really nice fixed choke Remington 1100's from the SX1 era that cost less than a tuned SX1 Stage III trigger group. But that's fair. It would probably cost more today to make the SX1 trigger group than it would an entire brand new Remington 1100,,,,and the Remington 1100 is an excellent gas operated target shotgun in it's own right.

And it's gospel truth that the finest polished, fitted, engraved, checkered, stocked, and overall highest quality automatic shotguns ever made and sold at an affordable price were the middle 1950's to early 1960's Browning Auto Fives. But they were long recoil. Hardly anyone has used one as a target gun in many and many a year. I understand that the Remington 1100 put them all to bed back around the time I was in grade school in the 1960's for use as a target gun.

What was wrong with the SX1 was that you could buy a really nice R1100 for just over half the money back in the 1970's, and Winchester was loosing millions of dollars trying to sell them for the prices they could get. It's a miracle they made about 90,000 SX1's before they quit beating themselves up and politely spun the company over to US Repeating Arms. It's been long rumored that Winchester quit making SX1 parts late in 1978 and it took four more years to try and sell production guns through the catalog, and another ten to clean up the rest of them in the custom shop. The SX1 project was probably the worst example of a gun company loosing money on an excellent gun in history. People would just not pony up the money for the quality of the gun.


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 Post subject: Re: Winchester Super X1
PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2012 5:05 am 
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SuperXOne wrote:
People would just not pony up the money for the quality of the gun.
People were, and are, perfectly willing to 'pony up the money' when they get a perceived return in value and quality. The whole notion of the Super-X Model 1 failing due to an extraordinarily high price has been exaggerated to an extreme over the years. Here's the truth;

Image

Image

Image

As you can see, the various models of the Super-X Model 1 were introduced at prices ranging from $255 to $310 at a time when the Auto-5 was listing at over $400. Buyers were willing to pay the price of the Browning because they got a perceived return in value and quality. That was not true of the Winchester, even though it was less expensive, and so it failed.


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 Post subject: Re: Winchester Super X1
PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2012 7:39 am 
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Stackman has it right. Most people don't seem to remember that Winchester firearms had been losing money on everything for years. John Olin did care, he felt they would get it back on ammo sales. With John Olin out of the way, Olin decided to make cheap guns . . . in 1964, the year that Winchester died.

The SX-1 lost money, but so what? Winchester was losing money on everything. The reputation of Winchester was already taking a big down-turn, the general disgust with the brand had been going on for a decade when the SX-1 was released.

It wasn't better than the 1100 when released, it was worse. Far worse. With an excessively heavy bolt, buffer problems, rib problems, and trigger problems (and a higher price) it was a guaranteed failure compared to the 1100 that had a 10 year head start. And, it was a 2-3/4 in. 12 gauge only. There were zero sales of the SX-1 in 16 ga. and 20 gauge, for they were never made. Remington was far ahead: 12 gauge (1963), 16 gauge (1964), 20 gauge (1969), .410 bore (1969). It was five years after the 1100 20 gauge and .410 that Winchester was struggling with 12 gauge only with the SX-1. Bolt buffer problems, too many expensive broken SX-1's needing new bolts, and a gas system that liked to rust, etc.

http://www.clayshootingusa.com/html/archive/nov_dec02/MythorMagic.pdf is a very good look at the SX-1.

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 Post subject: Re: Winchester Super X1
PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2012 11:02 am 
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RandyWakeman wrote:
Stackman has it right. Most people don't seem to remember that Winchester firearms had been losing money on everything for years. John Olin did care, he felt they would get it back on ammo sales. With John Olin out of the way, Olin decided to make cheap guns . . . in 1964, the year that Winchester died.

The SX-1 lost money, but so what? Winchester was losing money on everything. The reputation of Winchester was already taking a big down-turn, the general disgust with the brand had been going on for a decade when the SX-1 was released.

It wasn't better than the 1100 when released, it was worse. Far worse. With an excessively heavy bolt, buffer problems, rib problems, and trigger problems (and a higher price) it was a guaranteed failure compared to the 1100 that had a 10 year head start. And, it was a 2-3/4 in. 12 gauge only. There were zero sales of the SX-1 in 16 ga. and 20 gauge, for they were never made. Remington was far ahead: 12 gauge (1963), 16 gauge (1964), 20 gauge (1969), .410 bore (1969). It was five years after the 1100 20 gauge and .410 that Winchester was struggling with 12 gauge only with the SX-1. Bolt buffer problems, too many expensive broken SX-1's needing new bolts, and a gas system that liked to rust, etc.

http://www.clayshootingusa.com/html/archive/nov_dec02/MythorMagic.pdf is a very good look at the SX-1.


I would concur on Mr. Fischer's article (hell, I've got an SX-1 slicked by Steve), being a very good look at the SX-1.
I do not pretend to be knowledgeable about the 1100 to make any real argument against it. For me, it has just never felt "special" between the hands, and I'm very "eh" about it in 12 gauge (although I'd like to try one in 20).
The nice thing about the SX-1 is they can still be grabbed relatively cheap. You drop about $200 into tune and trigger jobs (you don't have to go all out like this, but I do) and replace the old brick with a Kick-eez, and you've got one really soft shooter that points extremely well, doesn't malfunction much if it all (as Fischer notes) and is a go-to clays gun.
As to care, after you drop in a Wright's kit, they are pretty much a breeze. As I heard Stu tell a young shooter the other day, "Just clean it, and don't forget to scrub out the gas tube."
That's been my exact experience, and I'm no gunsmith.
I'm cool with anybody who doesn't want one; leaves more for those of us who do.
Do I particularly want to carry one for pheasant? No. Do I really, really like my trap and skeet models, as well the one I've set up for cays? Yes.

Added: My taste for "walking" bird guns runs toward light doubles. I generally pick from one of three O/Us in my safe: a FAIR LX900 in 16, a Sig./B.Riz TR30 in 20, and a Beretta UL in 12.

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