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 Post subject: why do you use release trigger system
PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2012 5:45 am 
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Can you tell the purpose for the release trigger?
How many of you are using the system other than for flinching?

thanks!

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 Post subject: Re: why do you use release trigger system
PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2012 9:28 am 
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A lot of shooters do very good with them. The only way to find out is to try one for a while. Most users of a release say it is easier to just release than pull.


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 Post subject: Re: why do you use release trigger system
PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2012 3:48 pm 
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I was shooting before I was on the target. I thought that it was because I couldn't feel the trigger or that it was too light a pull.

With a release I can hold it back as hard as I want and just let go. Now I don't need to feel the trigger and can wear nice warm gloves if necessary.

I've never had a problem with a flinch.

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 Post subject: Re: why do you use release trigger system
PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 12:29 pm 
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In a few words, "Because it is a superior trigger system, in all aspects, over the pull design." That's why I shoot a release system. It's not because of a flinching problem, it's not for vanity reasons, and it's not just because the Jones's have one. It's just that simple...

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 Post subject: Re: why do you use release trigger system
PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 1:26 pm 
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The release trigger has saved coutless shooting careers. Mostly from the dreaded flinch, but a release trigger is exactly whats been said. A better trigger system to shoot with. A natural way to fire a shotgun simliar to releasing an arrow or baseball. It is reverse pshyhology for your subconscious. A fresh start on firing the gun on time - on target.

Most shooters will find it takes 500 releases to settle in and not have to think about setting the trigger before calling the target out. Another 1000 or 2 to become familar with the new trigger timing as it relates to your target point. In most cases shooters find they not only improve present averages, but may offer better averages than anytime before.

I regard the release trigger as a lost resort, an ace in the hole. Something held in reserve for when and if there is a shooting problem. A few shooters shoot the release just because it is a better trigger platform and not because of trigger finger problems. In registered shooting as many as 40% of shooters are using release triggers. Unless the shooter beside can hear the trigger being set, few will know what other shooters are using.

Trigger slappers have less problems than trigger pullers. If flinching or completely freezing on a release, the shooter is out of options and will never shoot good scores again. Many call it an end to a shooting career at that point.

Maltz

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 Post subject: Re: why do you use release trigger system
PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 6:51 pm 
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I have posted this before.

I got the following note some time ago from a friend that he received from one of his friends. I did a couple of minor edits to protect their identities but the rest is presented as written. It's got nothing to do with flinching but it sure makes a strong case about release triggers.

"Hey XXXXXXX,

As you know, I took up Trapshooting a little more than 4 years ago using an old model 12 trap gun that was loaned to me by a friend. However, after I had demonstrated a commitment to the game, my father in law sent me an over/under. By chance, it had both release and pull dropout triggers. While I knew nothing about release triggers and had never flinched, I thought why not give it a try. One of the guys at the club where I shoot showed me how to use it. Bingo. Within a couple of rounds I was shooting better than I had ever shot before. I soon gave ATA a try. I liked it and within XX months I was shooting AA/27.

I have watched the arguments about release triggers on TS.com for quite a while. I never felt qualified to jump in and participate because most of these arguments referred to flinching rather than just whether a release trigger is a better method of firing a trap gun. Because I had never had a problem with flinching, I do not understand anything about that problem. However, here is where it gets interesting. I have a very unique job. I am a team coordinator/referee/slave driver/mother hen for a team of exceptionally educated, experienced professionals representing a variety of engineering, medical, psychological and research disciplines. Our business is rocket science and brain surgery so to speak.

We are all employed by a major aerospace firm and while some of what we do is highly classified, most of it is of a standard commercial nature. What we do is provide independent testing for human interface control systems to determine if those controls are designed in such a manner as to eliminate as much probability of human error as possible. Simply put, this might just be whether it is better for a two way toggle switch to have up as off and down as on or vice versa. However, think of the control array in a 737 cockpit, the space shuttle or a nuclear power plant and that is what people pay us a lot of money to test. We usually have about 10 people on a team and we bill at $8000-$10,000 per hour.

About once a quarter we try to get the team out of the labs and into a more natural setting. I decided that a day at my trap club might be a lot of fun. I recruited a friend to help me with getting the guys to the line and shooting, and hopefully, hitting some targets. We had four trap guns, three with pull triggers and mine with the release. I was surprised at how easily some of the guys took to shooting the release. Afterwards, as we were sitting around enjoying chili dogs, the guys who used the release trigger started asking questions as to why my gun had a release and the other guns had pulled triggers. I gave the standard overview concerning flinching. However, these guys immediately were interested in whether a release trigger is a better human control interface for firing a trap gun. Much discussion ensued and everyone had a great time bringing their particular discipline to bear, but being research scientists no one would accept a resolution without specific testing.

A couple of weeks later, we had cleared the decks for a large contract concerning a fire control system for a shipboard missile defense system. The package was to arrive on the appointed morning and we had completed constructing our testing protocols. However, as I was conducting what I thought was the final check list meeting, we were notified that their might be a delay in delivery. Somehow the conversation flowed back to the outing at the trap club and then the discussion about release triggers. About that time, we were notified that delivery would be delayed at least 24 hours. So here is all this high-priced talent with nothing to do so someone suggested why not apply our talents to a release trigger review. Needless to say, numerous bets were quickly made. Having previously received security clearance to bring my trap gun into the employee parking lot, I happened to have my gun in my trunk. A quick call to security and I and my trap gun were being escorted into the lab.

Soon, we had several volunteers with wires attached from their trigger fingers, up their arms, on their spinal column and all over their heads. Others were studying the mechanical forces required and exerted by the two different triggers. Data was collected in the number crunching began. After a bit over five hours of research we had our answer.

Our typical project results in a document that runs from 20 pages for something very simple to several hundred pages for multiple function control arrays. However, while these reports are very helpful for the design and manufacturing teams, we have devised a simple ratio to present so that non-technical management people can quickly appreciate the value propositions of one system versus another. To do this we assign the least desirable functionality a value of one. We then assign the better functionality a value of plus one. By example, if we have found that the up is the worst position for "on" for the toggle switch then we might say that having "off" is a 1.14 better choice. We call this the better alternative ratio.

Because most of the products/systems that we test our very well designed with a lot of previous knowledge applied, our alternative ratio is usually fairly low. In fact, previously the highest alternative ratio that we have estimated for a manual control was a 2.67. Now, drumroll, the release trigger came back with a better alternative ratio compared to the pull trigger of 3.27 based upon a projected 100 repetitions in a 45 minute time frame. Quite frankly I was shocked at how big the difference was. Even though I had seen my shooting improve after getting the gun with the release trigger, there were lots of other variables that I am sure contributed to that progress
In summary, we produced a result that someone would have had to pay us about $45,000 to achieve. While I can't add anything to the discussion about flinching, I think I can categorically state that a release trigger provides a substantial biomechanical superiority to a pull trigger for shooting a trap gun.

Of course, we all know that many of the best trapshooters successfully use pull triggers and achieve 99% plus results. We also know that the majority of release trigger users will never achieve 99% plus results. However, if I were going to train 100 qualified candidates that can fly fighter jets to shoot trap, every one of them would have a gun with a release trigger."


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 Post subject: Re: why do you use release trigger system
PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 7:05 pm 
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That's a nice story Jim, but it doesn't tell us the results. Sure he mentioned a number that is supposed to represent the release as being better than the pull by a margin exponentially larger than anything he has tested before. Still, the scientist in me says that this number, without the supporting evidence or method, means nothing.

He did this testing in a laboratory. Obviously he wasn't shooting. His "subjects" weren't shooters let alone Trap shooters. Does that matter? I don't know unless I know the method.

It sounds to me like a Human Factors study. These go on all the time. They have a lot of value. Still, this story has little value as it stands.

It's important to note that I am a believer that a release trigger is a better trigger for Trap. I'm also a skeptic in every sense. Whenever I'm told X is better than Y, my first question is, how do you know? So, give us the details.

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 Post subject: Re: why do you use release trigger system
PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 8:26 pm 
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I don't know anything about it, Doug. It sounds like they tell people whether to flip a switch up or down or turn a knob left or right, whatever. It says that they wired people up to measure how much physical/mental effort it took to pull a trigger vs using a release. It says they use a ratio where 1 is the value of one choice and then the other is better or worse than that. I read this that the release is like 3 times "better" than the pull.

It seems you have determined that a release is better as did they. They just used some methods to quantify that. It does say that "we have devised a simple ratio to present so that non-technical management people can quickly appreciate the value propositions of one system versus another."

So, it sound like their ratio thing is for us "non-scientists".


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 Post subject: Re: why do you use release trigger system
PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 9:25 pm 
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I want the science. He is asking us to take what he says on faith. That's fine, but it's no different than anyone else saying a pull trigger is better because they say so.

Would you be shooting a pull now if the impromptu study had gone the other way?

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 Post subject: Re: why do you use release trigger system
PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 11:30 am 
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I can't shoot a pull as well I as I shoot a release so the study doesn't effect me at all. Would you go back to a pull if the study went the other way? No.

So, on an individual basis it has no effect on people who already use a release. Now, if I were a guy considering a release it would just be another box checked on the pro side of the ledger.


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 Post subject: Re: why do you use release trigger system
PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 12:18 pm 
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I would say that both Jim and Doug are the exception. Those that choose to release over pull without issues or trying to solve problems. Far more shooters struggle both with trigger pulling issues and the decision to move on to a release. A few never take enough time to covert. Some take a lot of time (5000 targets) to become comfortable and bring scores up to speed. While fast learners try a release and do well with it in under 500 rounds. Proving a release trigger can be emotional and requires some personal level of training. Also believe the more competitive the shooter, the bigger the expectation will be making the transition more difficult. This may be more about attitude than machanics.

A positive review like Tyner shares, with or without science is exactly the right information needed for those without understanding.

Maltz

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 Post subject: Re: why do you use release trigger system
PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 1:26 pm 
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One gentleman I shoot with has developed quite a flinch. He either won't admit it or doesn't realize what he's doing. There have been many times when he has not fired because he just couldn't pull the trigger. He will not switch to a release.

The funny part is that he thinks a release is dangerous, but he's had several NDs in the last year.

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 Post subject: Re: why do you use release trigger system
PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 2:04 pm 
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Rastoff wrote:
One gentleman I shoot with has developed quite a flinch. He either won't admit it or doesn't realize what he's doing. There have been many times when he has not fired because he just couldn't pull the trigger. He will not switch to a release.

The funny part is that he thinks a release is dangerous, but he's had several NDs in the last year.


Any of use that shoot a lot in competitive events know people like this. A product of their environment, having developed this attitude from other shooters they respect. I like to think in terms of giving the release trigger a positive overview to not alienate others that may need the change in the future. If a release trigger is handled in the same manor as a pull, there is no safety issue or history. Mount the gun, point to your starting place, set the trigger and call pull.

Your friend is at the end of his shooting career when freezing on the trigger. Matters little the reason, only that it get progressively worse. To the point of not being able to fire the shot, physically stopped by psychological or subconscious. Without a change in trigger, the game is over. Changing to late, the game gets complicated and adds a degree of danger by being only able to set the trigger off shoulder.

Sorry to hear this, I hate to loose trapshooters over a perception.

Maltz

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 Post subject: Re: why do you use release trigger system
PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 2:11 pm 
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maltzahn wrote:
Your friend is at the end of his shooting career when freezing on the trigger.
I believe you are correct. I hate to see it, but he's been getting worse. Won't admit it and won't try a release.

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 Post subject: Re: why do you use release trigger system
PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 2:21 pm 
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Let's pretend that the release trigger was not invented:

who can answer to:

1)WHY FLINCHING OCCURS?

2)WHAT ARE THE CAUSES?

and

Would you allow a kid, teenager to shoot a release trigger because he flinches?

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 Post subject: Re: why do you use release trigger system
PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 3:46 pm 
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I can't answer the first two. I believe a serious flinch is caused by too many hits over a long period of time. That is just my opinion.

However, would I allow a teenager to shoot a release? Absolutely! If I'm comfortable with them using a gun at all, a release is no different. I would take the time to train them just like I would anyone else. Why wouldn't I?

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 Post subject: Re: why do you use release trigger system
PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 3:52 pm 
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Flinches are many different things, most being sight flinches, not seeing the bird correctly or moving the gun at the call and being wrong and having to correct. SOme flinches are because of fear of failure and we want to win so bad, and it is more common in males.
Recoil is not one of the main reasons of a flinch, accoeding to Trap shooter USA. Speel forth thy wisdom coach, I am here to learn. :)
DDF


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 Post subject: Re: why do you use release trigger system
PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 4:07 pm 
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Rastoff wrote:
I want the science.

{hs#
20+ years of working in the Aerospace field has caused me to say the same thing.
I don't shoot a release...yet :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: why do you use release trigger system
PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 4:18 pm 
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My flinch was not caused by recoil. I have always shot light loads and I even went to the 1 oz loads to try to assist me with my flinch problem. As stated earlier I took all the advice "thrown at me" by well meaning fellow shooters. If I would have to reflect back on the cause; I would have to say it was mostly the fear of not doing well. I used to be a decent shooter and held a 97 average in 16 yard trap and had worked my way to the 25 yard line in handicap in ATA registered shoots. (Not great but decent). I took a leave from shooting for almost 20 years to concentrate on other things, in most part my job responsibilities. Then when I neared retirement I wanted to get back into shooting. I started out fairly decent; but my averages were not what I hoped for. My averages just kept going down and I was frustrated. The harder I tried the worse that I shot. (Flinches had now entered the picture) My last registered ATA shoot I had an 80x100 with probably 20 flinches. I was embarrassed and just wanted to quit. As I stated previously a very good shooter watched me shoot a practice round and said I reminded him of himself before he converted to a release. It was at this point I told him that I always said if I had to go to a release trigger I would quit shooting. His response to me was simple; ("Then quit"). I gave it some thought and said what the heck; I have tried every so called cure in the book with no positive results. My very first round with a release was a 24. I forgot to set the trigger for my first target and missed. Ran the next 24. Since then I have not shot a lot of ATA targets. (My last ATA average for 16 yards was 96.5) But I do shoot lots of money shoots, league shoots and sporting clays. I have maintained a 24x25 average in trap, (not great but a lot better than what I had been doing). My last years average in sporting clays has been 84x100. Again, far from great but I am enjoying myself. So we can argue, disagree or whatever; all I'm saying is the release trigger allowed me to enjoy shooting again. (And I don't care what anyone says).
JMHO. Ed


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 Post subject: Re: why do you use release trigger system
PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 4:33 pm 
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BUT....I believe the freeze is about recoil. Where the subconscious will not allow any more pain or failure to protect the ego/ logic/ reason part of the mind. A freeze is not being able to pull the trigger consciously or subconsciously. I have always advised to switch to a release when flinching 2 targets a hundred or the first hint of a freeze. Both are subconscious related and tricking it with reverse order is the cure. Also believe a flinch using a release is about sight picture where the subconsious knows the shot is out time. The gun will tend to jerk toward the target, not away or feel as shocking.

Coach..... if you have never needed to use a release and only compared between pull and release, your perspective will remain unaware. There are temporary fixes like slapping instead of pulling or changing routine, but if inflicted it is mental. Only a reverse in approach can extend the shooting career with expected scores. The old saying "you can't fix stupid" could be in shotgun shooting "you can't will a change by conscious effort to fix subconscious problems". Just like learning targeting by loading the data solutions into your brain, the part of the brain is the subconscious. A flincher or trigger freezer has loaded the problem. No reasoning or effort with purpose can help. That thinking is with the wrong part of the brain. No one to date has found any other solutions other than a release trigger and its reverse order as compared to what has been stored into your brain.

Getting past the loss of man ego going to the release is the last step to fixing the problem.

Great subject....Maltz

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Last edited by maltzahn on Tue Mar 20, 2012 4:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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